President Donald Trump

[Hornsby]

Good thread to nap through, I doubt that I could have stayed up with the pace.

Yes, I'm one that refers to Trump tweets on occasion, and the reason is this: Once you start ignoring that kind of behavior, it becomes akin to condoning it, and accepting it as normal. It most assuredly is not normal, not in any way for a normal citizen. For a sitting President, it's simply unacceptable. Like some people like to say about spiking the football, act like you've been there before.

And yes, Obama did a lot of things that I didn't and still don't agree with. And no, I didn't complain openly on this forum because I thought that the good outweighed the bad, by far. Trump started Tabula Rasa...he could have made his legacy anything that he wanted it to be. I for one, thought that he'd be a better President than a candidate. I thought that all his campaign promises were simply vote getting devises, not anything that a President actually thought that he could carry off. I was wrong, and he's trying to fulfil each and every campaign promise, much to the detriment of the US as a nation.

And yes, I was ashamed that Trump didn't mention the fallen soldier, but instead tweeted out about a silly political feud instead of acting Presidential. That he met the casket today redeems him a slight bit, but only slightly. Hopefully, he'll be properly humbled by the gravity of lives lost, and tread more carefully in the future.

And yes, Hillary lost, can we just get over that now and move on with how to deal with the present and the future? You're supposed to know history so that you don't repeat it, not relive it each and every day.

As far as Gorsuch is concerned, I think that he'll get confirmed, he's a smart guy and says all the right things. I still don't think that McConnell uses the nuclear option, because once that genie is out of the bottle, it'll be hell getting it back in. And the Democrats will take control again one day, and they'll use everything to their advantage, just like the GOP is trying to do now. That's just politics in this day and age...

[Redbirds Fan]

Trump rightly lambasted Obama for not using the U-6 to give an accurate picture of our employment situation. If Trump uses anything but the U-6, he should be kicked in the nuts. As should any Obama supporter who fails to acknowledge that he routinely cherry-picked employment numbers to paint a rosy jobs picture that was utter BS.

Sincere question...did Obama use the numbers used by other presidents to describe our employment picture? Were the numbers he used instead some obscure statistic? Or was it something just made up by his staff? What I'm looking for is what you mean when you say "routinely cherry-picked" to "paint a rosy jobs picture". I always heard the number was right, but that it didn't include factors many people thought were important. Sort of like how batting average has lost ground to more favored statistical measures. No?

[The Feral Slasher]

It was presumptuous for me to assume any had or should read my overly long screed where I was careful to repudiate Obama and careful to emphasize my concern was a matter of global perception, so I shouldn't have assumed you were creating a strawman or deflecting from my core argument by asking if I was arguing trump ordered the murder of civilians or if I was being hypocritical for calling attention to this issue unless I was equally vocal in denouncing Obama.

I still maintain that many, and especially those in the Muslim world, will perceive this as a purposeful act, regardless of whether it was, given Trump's rhetoric about Muslims and terrorists.

After Bush and Obama helped to destroy Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Yemen and ordered drone strikes all over globe I guess I thought we'd be past the point of trying to win "Hearts and Minds". If this event had happened under Obama it would have been a non-issue and nobody in here would have cared. It's just another reason to bash Trump as if we needed anymore.

[Sour Masher]

After Bush and Obama helped to destroy Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Yemen and ordered drone strikes all over globe I guess I thought we'd be past the point of trying to win "Hearts and Minds". If this event had happened under Obama it would have been a non-issue and nobody in here would have cared. It's just another reason to bash Trump as if we needed anymore.

I think many in here would have cared and did care, and were vocal about it. I can't prove I would have and did, because I never posted in the Sports Bar until relatively recently, but DMT and Nots have old comments that prove that. And I'm sure others who have a long post history in here do as well.

[The Feral Slasher]

I think many in here would have cared and did care, and were vocal about it. I can't prove I would have and did, because I never posted in the Sports Bar until relatively recently, but DMT and Nots have old comments that prove that. And I'm sure others who have a long post history in here do as well.

It was pretty much DMT, ElDiablo, and Hodor who would ever have any real criticism of Obama. you can look back at the Libya, Syria and Afghanistan threads if you really care. Obama was pretty much given a pass for damn near everything, always given the benefit of the doubt and supported. If Donald Trump had screwed up Libya and Syria as bad as Clinton/Obama did there would be no end to criticism from the Democratic faithful.

[nots]

It was pretty much DMT, ElDiablo, and Hodor who would ever have any real criticism of Obama. you can look back at the Libya, Syria and Afghanistan threads if you really care. Obama was pretty much given a pass for damn near everything, always given the benefit of the doubt and supported. If Donald Trump had screwed up Libya and Syria as bad as Clinton/Obama did there would be no end to criticism from the Democratic faithful.

Seriously? I probably have three dozen posts in those threads decrying our troop escalation in Afghanistan, our drone droppings across the region, and bombing the Doctors Without Borders hospital.

[The Feral Slasher]

Seriously? I probably have three dozen posts in those threads decrying our troop escalation in Afghanistan, our drone droppings across the region, and bombing the Doctors Without Borders hospital.

I was referring to the liberals/Democrats who were critical of Obama, maybe I wasn't clear.

[nots]

I was referring to the liberals/Democrats who were critical of Obama, maybe I wasn't clear.

Oh--my mistake then.

[Hornsby]

Welp, I guess that insulting one of your closest allies SEEMED like a good idea at the time.

It should have been one of the most congenial calls for the new commander in chief — a conversation with the leader of
Australia, one of America’s staunchest allies, at the end of a triumphant week.

Instead, President Trump blasted Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull over a refugee agreement and boasted about
the magnitude of his electoral college win, according to senior U.S. officials briefed on the Saturday exchange. Then, 25
minutes into what was expected to be an hour%long call, Trump abruptly ended it.

At one point Trump informed Turnbull that he had spoken with four other world leaders that day — including Russian
President Vladimir Putin — and that “This was the worst call by far.”

Trump’s behavior suggests that he is capable of subjecting world leaders, including close allies, to a version of the vitriol he
frequently employs against political adversaries and news organizations in speeches and on Twitter.

“This is the worst deal ever,” Trump fumed as Turnbull attempted to confirm that the United States would honor its pledge to
take in 1,250 refugees from an Australian detention center. Trump, who one day earlier had signed an executive order
temporarily barring the admissions of refugees, complained that he was “going to get killed” politically and accused Australia of
seeking to export the “next Boston bombers.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-gday-mate-on-call-with-australian-pm-trump-badgers-and-brags/2017/02/01/88a3bfb0-e8bf-11e6-80c2-30e57e57e05d_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.2861a899d1a2

He also told the Mexican President in last Friday's call:

“You have a bunch of bad hombres down there. You aren’t doing enough to stop them. I think your military is scared. Our military isn’t, so I just might send them down to take care of it.”

So he's now threatening our border neighbor with invasion...I think I'll stay out of Mexico for a while.

The fact that this kind of stuff is leaking out of the White House sounds like a cry for help from hostages in there....

[The Feral Slasher]

Thanks for posting that quote DMT. Not only is it the perfect sentiment for us to remember, it us good to be reminded of the intellectual heavy weights that have held the highest office in our land.

The website says it is your 40th birthday. Hope you have a great birthday ! I apologize for being argumentative and a bit of a jerk, truly hope you have a great day

[Redbirds Fan]

Welp, I guess that insulting one of your closest allies SEEMED like a good idea at the time.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-gday-mate-on-call-with-australian-pm-trump-badgers-and-brags/2017/02/01/88a3bfb0-e8bf-11e6-80c2-30e57e57e05d_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.2861a899d1a2

He also told the Mexican President in last Friday's call:



So he's now threatening our border neighbor with invasion...I think I'll stay out of Mexico for a while.

The fact that this kind of stuff is leaking out of the White House sounds like a cry for help from hostages in there....

And I cannot resist pointing out once again that President Trump, since he lost the popular vote badly and because he desperately feels the need to brag about something, seems to rely heavily upon his electoral college win, calling it a landslide, a historic win, huge, etc.

In reality, the fact is that of the fifty-eight presidential elections in our country's history, Trump's winning electoral college percentage (56.50%) ranks only 46th. Only twelve times did a president do worse, and that includes George W. Bush, twice.

By way of comparison, Obama's first term number was 67.84%, while his second term was 61.71%. FDR bested Trump four (4) times, his lowest percentage being 81.36%.

Maybe the Australian guy got tired of hearing Trump's electoral college boasts and told him. Maybe Trump didn't appreciate it and hung up.

[Sour Masher]

The website says it is your 40th birthday. Hope you have a great birthday ! I apologize for being argumentative and a bit of a jerk, truly hope you have a great day

Thanks. I really appreciate the sentiment, and I don't think you've been a jerk at all, especially compared to how most people communicate online.

Despite things getting heated in here from time to time, it is still a refreshing outlet filled with lots of smart and thoughtful folks like yourself. I don't engage in social media, and comment section for most media outlets depress the hell out of me with their ignorance, vitrol, and trolling, so this is the place I've been coming to vent. Although, I can't wait for baseball, and may try to focus on that for awhile once pitchers and catchers report.

Been a low key day for me. My wife had to work late and is sick. Aside from my grandmother, you are the first to wish me a Happy bday today, so thanks again!

[chancellor]

Yea, it astounds and sickens me how many Democrats just looked the other way on Obama's drone war and legalizing the assassination of U.S. citizens. Here's a rundown from a left-wing source.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/14/13577464/obama-farewell-speech-torture-drones-nsa-surveillance-trump

"Using drones to kill American citizens without trial, collecting the email and phone records of millions of Americans on a daily basis, and grabbing militants off of the streets of foreign cities and imprisoning them indefinitely — these are all powers that Obama has bequeathed to his successor."

The likelihood of this trend reversing under Trump is zero.

Indeed true. If you choose to weaponize the bureaucracy, best to understand what might happen should your worst enemy takes it over.

[Bernie Brewer]

If you are referring to me, I wasn't hyperventilating about anything. And no one has refuted or even addressed my points about the strike in Yemen, the first one on Trump's watch, killing innocent women and children, and how this follows him saying the US should kill the families of terrorists. As I previously indicated, him acknowledging the death of a Navy Seal is no surprise. Let me know when he takes back calling the action a success and admits how horrible it was that innocent Muslims women and children were killed by American soldiers, instead of completing ignoring their deaths in his statement that it was a successful mission.

And please see my admittedly long previous post with lots of concessions and qualifiers and repudiations of Obama and others before responding, because trying to show this is business as usual and sidestepping the things that make it different won't be convincing to me at all, as I already addressed all of that. His previous rhetoric and current indifference exacerbate these horrific deaths, and make Trump an ideal recruitment tool for extremists.

I'll give this a try. First, I think you're conflating the concept of innocent women with some of the women killed. It appears that several of the hostiles were in fact women. CNN Online Headline: Inside the Yemen raid: Women al Qaeda fighters surprised US forces. From the article, it says:

The raid was greenlit by President Donald Trump shortly after taking the oath of office, but multiple officials told CNN the mission had been planned months in advance and had been briefed to then-President Barack Obama.
Both defense and Obama administration officials said the operation was never vetoed by Obama and that "operational reasons" were why it was pushed back after January 20 and why Obama left the task of authorizing the raid to his successor.

So I am not sure it is fair to say its Trumps first as much as it is fair for the right to try to label it as Obama's last. They share the burden. In any case the mission wasnt supposed to be hostile. It turned hostile and children were killed when the troops under attack called in an air strike.

Now to the point of Trumps rhetoric during the campaign of killing families of terrorist. I don't recall him saying this definitively, although I could be wrong (he said a lot!). I think I recall him saying he doesn't want to tell the enemy what his strategies and plans are and that he wants to keep all options tight to his vest (including killing family members, water boarding and enhanced torture, etc.). I believe these were poorly articulated thinly veiled threats to give potential virgin seeking jihadists something else to consider as a consequence for their actions before self sacrifice for the cause. It is fairly well documented that families are often rewarded financially for a family member martyring themselves. His whole campaign was unconventional and he is trying to be unconventional in response to Global affairs and terror threats.

Not saying I agree with any of this, just trying to address your concerns.

[Sour Masher]

Here is a link to a Daily Beast article that just got posted that is making the same argument I am. BB, it references the December 2015 comment from Trump about killing the families of terrorist, and the response that comment got: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...a-s-hands.html

Here is an excerpt that addresses the issue, and also addresses how Spicer would not deny that Trump is okay with targeting the families of terrorists, and instead emphasized that Trump would not target American citizens. The bolding of Berger's remarks and Trump's are mine. Some background on Berger--he has literally written the books when it comes to ISIS, and other terrorist organizations. He is a highly respected expert on the subject who was at the Brookings Institute, and has given many lectures on home grown and foreign terrorism.

"J.M. Berger, a fellow with the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism—The Hague, cautioned that Nawar’s death might refocus al Qaeda’s attention on the United States, which had taken a backseat to more local conflicts.

“This situation, which would be terrible under any circumstances, is tremendously aggravated by President Trump’s campaign promise to target the families of terrorists,” Berger said. “While I would hope U.S. military personnel would disobey an illegal order to intentionally kill civilians, the fact that the president made that promise during the campaign means that people around the world will assume this was an intentional act.”

Indeed, just over a year ago, Trump called for killing terrorists’ families as a deterrence measure.

"The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families,” Trump declared on Dec. 2, 2015. “They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families.”

At a press conference on Tuesday, reporters asked White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer if Trump stood by that statement. He dodged an answer.
But Spicer drew a red line about purposefully targeting U.S. citizens.
“No American citizen will ever be targeted,” Spicer said."