President Donald Trump

[Hornsby]

I do disagree with you in that many many times I have witnessed attacks on others.

In addition I have received some emails saying goodbye as this place is not longer much fun.

This is sad to me.

Sorry, I've never seen anyone "attacked" for their stances, or their belief system, and I've been around for a long time. I've seen spirited arguments, vehement disagreements, and even "shouting" matches, but I've never seen anyone singled out and attacked. If people leave the discussion, that's on them...they'll never get to make a point if they're not here to do so.

[ironfist]

Look, I think we all can agree that shouting down explicitly racist dialogue is ok and probably necessary. Nazis and KKK members should be condemned outright. However, there are a ton of people in between that either are subtler racists or unwittingly racist that would be better served by trying to engage in a dialogue. No one thinks they are the villain in their own story, most likely even including actual evil people, so just yelling "you're being racist" is not going to do any good.

And no, not everyone who supports Trump has to be a racist. But, on the other hand, you have to understand that supporting a racist is going to piss a lot of people off. Whether you support him only because of his conservative policies or otherwise. It's like saying, well I really enjoy watching Bill Cosby's show and I don't care that he's a rapist. Yes maybe his shows are funny, but it is all tainted and, like it or not, it does reflect somewhat on your judgement. If you are going to argue that Trump is not a racist, is misunderstood, or doesn't mean to be a racist, well I don't believe you have a solid argument. He's shown his true colors pretty clearly time and time again.

[Gregg]

Sorry, I've never seen anyone "attacked" for their stances, or their belief system, and I've been around for a long time. I've seen spirited arguments, vehement disagreements, and even "shouting" matches, but I've never seen anyone singled out and attacked. If people leave the discussion, that's on them...they'll never get to make a point if they're not here to do so.

So do you think the reason I decided to post in this thread is because I wanted to defend Trump?

[Hornsby]

So do you think the reason I decided to post in this thread is because I wanted to defend Trump?

I have no reason why you decide to do whatever it is you do...I don't know you other than from interaction here in cyberspace. Whatever your intentions are are known only to you, and perhaps your close friends and family.

My post simply states that if a poster thinks that they're singled out for personal "attack", I think that they're wrong. People will vigorously defend positions, and attack opposing POSITIONS, not posters, IMO. And I do repeat, if you leave, you don't get to defend your position. That's all...I understand feeling like your on an island and maybe needing a break, but my beliefs stand.

[swampdragon]

So do you think the reason I decided to post in this thread is because I wanted to defend Trump?

maybe?
Did you vote for Trump? and if you did do you still support him? That way your perspective/direction might seem clearer.

[Sour Masher]

I posted this in the Waffle House Shooting Thread, but it is more appropriate here.

One thing I find very interesting is that no Trump voter/supporter/devil's advocate, etc has explicitly come out and disagreed with the idea that Trump is racist. I think if folks believe that the notion put forth that Trump is racist is false, it would greatly move the discussion forward if someone had the courage to state that explicitly. It would allow everyone to know where the real argument is. Is it with the notion Trump's a racist or is it with the notion that one is okay with racism, or at least prioritizes racism below other concerns, if he or she supports a racist leader? Without knowing the real point if contention, we are just dancing around things in an unproductive way.

Gregg, would you mind stating whether you believe Trump is racist? I'd also be grateful for an answer on this question from others who support Trump, as I really think it will help me understand better how to respond to folks.

For the record, I believe Trump is a racist, and while I suspect he may not see himself that way, there is no denying he consciously has courted and dog whistled to racists in his efforts to get elected. So even if he doesn't see himself as racist, he absolutely is cool with playing on racists fears and angers for political gain. I can provide support for my claims if anyone disagrees with them and wants examples of why I make these claims.

[Gregg]

I have no reason why you decide to do whatever it is you do...I don't know you other than from interaction here in cyberspace. Whatever your intentions are are known only to you, and perhaps your close friends and family.

My post simply states that if a poster thinks that they're singled out for personal "attack", I think that they're wrong. People will vigorously defend positions, and attack opposing POSITIONS, not posters, IMO. And I do repeat, if you leave, you don't get to defend your position. That's all...I understand feeling like your on an island and maybe needing a break, but my beliefs stand.

Fair enough.

I am not posting to defend Trump.

[Gregg]

I posted this in the Waffle House Shooting Thread, but it is more appropriate here.

One thing I find very interesting in this thread and the large Trump one is that no Trump voter/supporter/devil's advocate, etc has explicitly come out and disagreed with the idea that Trump is racist. I think if folks believe that the notion put forth that Trump is racist is false, it would greatly move the discussion forward if someone had the courage to state that explicitly. It would allow everyone to know where the real argument is. Is it with the notion Trump's a racist or is it with the notion that one is okay with racism, or at least prioritizes racism below other concerns, if he or she supports a racist leader? Without knowing the real point if contention, we are just dancing around things in an unproductive way.

Gregg, would you mind stating whether you believe Trump is racist? I'd also be grateful for an answer on this question from others who support Trump, as I really think it will help me understand better how to respond to folks.

For the record, I believe Trump is a racist, and while I suspect he may not see himself that way, there is no denying he consciously has courted and dog whistled to racists in his efforts to get elected. So even if he doesn't see himself as racist, he absolutely is cool with playing on racists fears and angers for political gain. I can provide support for my claims if anyone disagrees with them and wants examples of why I make these claims.

Sour, I did not post to enter the political debate. I posted because the site I love is being affected and effected negatively by the tone and finger pointing.

I personally do not care who voted for who. I do care how we talk to each other in here.

[Gregg]

maybe?
Did you vote for Trump? and if you did do you still support him? That way your perspective/direction might seem clearer.

Swampy, read my last two posts and it will be abundantly clear as to my direction and perspective.

[Sour Masher]

Sour, I did not post to enter the political debate. I posted because the site I love is being affected and effected negatively by the tone and finger pointing.

I personally do not care who voted for who. I do care how we talk to each other in here.

I don't think things are quite as vicious as you suggest, although I do think, from time to time, some folks have have crossed lines of politeness on issues they are passion about. I try not to do that myself, and I agree with you that being respectful is the best way to continue dialogue. And I respect that you make the call for that, and also that you try to lighten the mood in the sports bar with lighter threads.

That said, I have only ever seen the sort of contentiousness you describe in the political threads, which make up a tiny percentage of this site, and even then, more often than not, it is about disagreeing with ideas, not attacking individual posters. But, again, I agree, we should keep things civil and respect minority views, or those who hold them are less likely to post their ideas.

The first several years I was on this site, I never came to the sports bar at all, and I can't foresee me ever getting to the point of not coming to the site at all, just because of one or two threads. Why would someone leave the site entirely over one or two contentious threads, unless those are the only issues they care to discuss here? If all someone wants to discuss are the most volatile of topics, that person has to expect passionate disagreement and push back. As they say, don't talk about politics or religion if you want to avoid conflict.

If/when I need a break from that and feel I'm just going in circles, I just don't post in these threads for awhile. I stick to sports or talking about kids or pets or light topics. I think that is what most folks do. Are there any examples of people who have left the site entirely because they were personally insulted in this or another political thread? Were those posters actively posting in other, non-contentious threads, and then stopped doing that because of this thread? I know Baldgriff took a break from the site, but I think he only posted on contentious issues. Bernie is taking a break from this thread, but I suspect he still lurks and will post in other threads that interests him. I know a lot of folks who wisely avoid this thread and others like it just for the reasons you suggest. Isn't that a reasonable response to not wanting to get into heated debates on these topics?

I just don't see how we can disagree about issues like Trump without passions rising. Certainly, we should refrain from ad hominim attacks, but I'm getting the impression you are counting some posts/points as inappropriate that passionately attack someone's ideas rather than only decrying posts that attack, in a personal way, individuals posting those ideas. Again, I agree that is counter-productive, but, again, I'm not sure there is a way to meaningfully discuss some topics without accepting vehement disagreement and push back on ideas.

[Judge Jude]

I struggle to understand anyone who doesn't see the main tone of the last several years in the Sports Bar as toxic.

a handful of posters are comfortable with that tone, but I think the crowd has spoken in terms of exits.

if a crowd doesn't laugh at a comic's jokes, the problem isn't the audience - it's the jokes.

and if a crowd gives up on conversations, then the problem isn't the audience, either - no matter how much easier it is to assume so.

[Sour Masher]

I struggle to understand anyone who doesn't see the main tone of the last several years in the Sports Bar as toxic.

a handful of posters are comfortable with that tone, but I think the crowd has spoken in terms of exits.

if a crowd doesn't laugh at a comic's jokes, the problem isn't the audience - it's the jokes.

and if a crowd gives up on conversations, then the problem isn't the audience, either - no matter how much easier it is to assume so.

I wasn't in here years ago. Were there as many political threads back in the day? Did folks post more in other types of threads? I suspect the increase in toxicity is a product of the types of conversations some people are choosing to have here, but I don't have the history here to know that, so I ask it sincerely. I think politics in this country are more toxic, so conversations about politics will also be so as well. So, if there are more posts about politics, more contention seems a natural by-product of that.

Are you seeing more toxicity in non-political threads as well? That would surprise me. I don't see that in non-political threads, or in the sports sections of the forums, at least for the most part. Everyone once in awhile, someone will get rude in those threads, but I imagine that has always happened from time to time.

I also haven't been here long enough to know of how many people have left these conversations. Some of the recent folks leaving were also some of the most contentious posters, ironically. Gwynninthehall, for instance gave as much or more than he got in that regard. He attacked fervently and frequently before departing. Baldgriff, conversely, was admirably above getting personal most of the time, even though his ideas and onejayhawk's are probably the most attacked on the site. I completely disagreed with most of his ideas, but he hardly ever made things personal, which I respected. But his perception of the site was, I'm sure, largely shaped by his decision to dwell almost exclusively in contentious threads. Maybe that is why he chose to leave and onejayhawk has not--onejay pots in other threads so isn't just engaging in contentious ideas. Bernie, who by his own admission is just fatigued with this debate, but will likely be back, is also a polite fellow. I hope to see him post in other, more friendly threads.

[Mithrandir]

I wasn't in here years ago. Were there as many political threads back in the day? Did folks post more in other types of threads? I suspect the increase in toxity is a product of the types of conversations people are choosing to have here, but I don't have the history here to know that, so I ask it sincerely. I think politics in this country are more toxic, so conversations about politics will also be so as well. So, if there are more posts about politics, more contention seems a natural by-product of that.

Are you seeing more toxicity in in-political threads? That would surprise me. I don't see that in non-political threads, or in the sports sections of the forums, at least for the most part. Everyone once in awhile, someone will get rude in those threads, but I imagine that has always happened from time to time.

Only in the threads that i start !

[Hornsby]

I struggle to understand anyone who doesn't see the main tone of the last several years in the Sports Bar as toxic.

a handful of posters are comfortable with that tone, but I think the crowd has spoken in terms of exits.

if a crowd doesn't laugh at a comic's jokes, the problem isn't the audience - it's the jokes.

and if a crowd gives up on conversations, then the problem isn't the audience, either - no matter how much easier it is to assume so.

Many more people have stayed on and continue to post, then have left. The sports bar is what it's always been...a place for conversations not centering on sports, sometimes light hearted and fun, sometimes serious as a heart attack. I don't think that a couple of people deciding to leave represent anything more than what it is, a few people deciding to take a break.

[Sour Masher]

Only in the threads that i start !

Ha, that is true. I take back what I said about baldgriff and onejayhawk being the most personally maligned poster here. You take the gold medal in that regard, specifically/primarily with folks ribbing you about your anger of player cold spells.