President Donald Trump

[Mithrandir]

Maybe if you dig deeper you would find that Republicans prefer their shit candidate over the Democratic shit candidate and vise versa.

What does that have to do with liking a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, compulsive lying asshole like Trump? Why can't more people not like either candidate and quit voting for the lesser of two evils?

[Mithrandir]

No.

His response was in response to Trump supporters being bigots. The line is Trump= Republican= bigot.

This is the broad stroke that is offensive.

Are some Republicans bigots absolutely. Are some Democrats bigots absolutely.

I am not defending racists. I am tired of losing RJ members to the attacks and ganging up on those that have any minority position on any topic in the Sports Bar.

I have found that most Trump supporters that I come across are bigots in some way. Your experience may vary Gregg.

Frankly Gregg I think that you have your head in the sand when it comes to Trump supporters. Nothing is 100%, but the GOP is much more likely to have racists and bigots in my world experience and view.

[Teenwolf]

No.

His response was in response to Trump supporters being bigots. The line is Trump= Republican= bigot.

This is the broad stroke that is offensive.

Are some Republicans bigots absolutely. Are some Democrats bigots absolutely.

I am not defending racists. I am tired of losing RJ members to the attacks and ganging up on those that have any minority position on any topic in the Sports Bar.

How have we gotten to the point that people can't even talk about the Trump supporters they know personally without being called out for it? He's talking about real things that he's heard and seen with his own eyes!

Do you feel like you're being ganged up on? Maybe you shouldn't tell people they mis-understand their own experiences and you won't receive such pushback. See how that might tick you off?

I know a lot of Trump supporters who probably wouldn't consider themselves racists per se, but likely think that racism isn't a problem and is being overblown by the leftist, agenda-driven media. These are the kind of people who don't mind off-color jokes and will occasionally say things like "black people are lazy" and give me an anecdote about one guy who works at his office as proof. So not exactly full-blown KKK racists here, but still...

I have known other Trump supporters who started out questioning him and preferred other Republican candidates. One of them has become a full-blown Trump diehard, posting how proud he is that his son is wearing Trump t-shirts and hat. The other is still hesitant and critical against some things Trump does. However, he still posts a lot of memes that are anti-anti-Trump (if that makes sense). It feels to me like he is similar to many that post here who don't consider themselves Trump supporters but feel like they are getting attacked or lumped in just for still being conservative or Republican.

[Gregg]

Do you feel like you're being ganged up on? Maybe you shouldn't tell people they mis-understand their own experiences and you won't receive such pushback. See how that might tick you off?

A couple of things. First I do not understand the last statement above. Please clarify it.

Secondly if I take the other two statements/sentences I would read that as We wouldn't gang up on you if you agreed with us. Do I have that right?

Just to be clear I was not suggesting he misunderstood, I was pointing out the danger of the broad stroke.

I doubt that you will be able to see my point because you have already made up your mind and want to argue how right you are rather than have a discussion.

[dslaw]

Are they execs? Or rank and file worker bees? Cuz the impact of the tax law is probably going to be very different for the 2 tiers of workers.

They are making over $100K per year. I keep telling them I don't know their tax position but losing the $8K standard exemption immediately drives their taxes up by $1,500 - $2,000 and the lower tax rates won't make that up. It depends on their itemized deduction vs. the standard deduction and whether they get a benefit from that. I won't get any benefit as my deductions are over $24K so my taxes will increase. They refuse to believe me and think I am confused but I have done the work multiple times and it always shows my taxes going up. My paycheck has increased but my tax bill will increase next year. Talk about a double whammy. Not sure if I should just increase my payments to the IRS now or just know I have to fork over a large amount next April.

[Hornsby]

No.

His response was in response to Trump supporters being bigots. The line is Trump= Republican= bigot.

This is the broad stroke that is offensive.

Are some Republicans bigots absolutely. Are some Democrats bigots absolutely.

I am not defending racists. I am tired of losing RJ members to the attacks and ganging up on those that have any minority position on any topic in the Sports Bar.

Nobody is being forced out here, nobody. Anyone who leaves, drops out, or just becomes a passive viewer, is doing so by their own choice. There have been no attacks on anyone, spirited responses, yes. Sometimes over MY line, but it's almost always followed by a civil debate. It's the old line "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"...those people chose to leave the kitchen. No reflection on them other than they were tired of arguing...

[dslaw]

I have found that most Trump supporters that I come across are bigots in some way. Your experience may vary Gregg.

Frankly Gregg I think that you have your head in the sand when it comes to Trump supporters. Nothing is 100%, but the GOP is much more likely to have racists and bigots in my world experience and view.

One of the guys I have mentioned that supports many of Trumps policies has adopted two african american kids - brother & sister whose mother couldn't take care of them. He got them as babies and one is in college and the other will be graduating soon and going on a mission (I do live in UT) this fall. So he certainly isn't prejudiced against non-white people. He has said his family and friends were surprised about him adopting the kids and once he even got the comment "Are you sure you want to adopt two n----". At the same time I have in-laws that called Obama the 'n' word and would probably support Trump to the end of the earth. It seems that most of the people posting know of bigoted people that did vote for Trump but I think it shouldn't be hard to find non bigoted people who voted for Trump as well.

[Teenwolf]

A couple of things. First I do not understand the last statement above. Please clarify it.

Secondly if I take the other two statements/sentences I would read that as We wouldn't gang up on you if you agreed with us. Do I have that right?

Just to be clear I was not suggesting he misunderstood, I was pointing out the danger of the broad stroke.

I doubt that you will be able to see my point because you have already made up your mind and want to argue how right you are rather than have a discussion.

If you can't handle criticism, seriously, drop out of controversial topics. If you say something stupid (as I've done many many times on here!)... expect to receive pushback, otherwise don't post!

This has come up many times now, so I need to clarify that YES, playing devil's advocate (as many MANY right wingers do on every instance of racism) defending the racist side of a situation, without knowing anything about the individuals involved in the situation, is racist. Showing support for racists is racist. Like the tiki-torch nazis in Charlottesville... people who want to defend the intentions of clearly racist people without having met them... well, hate to break this to you, but that's supporting racism.

I'm not saying YOU ARE a racist, I'm saying that you're making arguments that are based in racism by discounting Ironfist's claims of his own circle of friends' statements and beliefs.

I live in a place where racism is so rampant, it's really hard for me to listen to racism apologists. Sorry if this particular response has hurt your feelings, but it really hurts my feelings to see this nonsense response again and again... I've had aunts and uncles tell me, regarding Native teenagers being drowned in the river (about 10 of them now): "If you don't want to talk about whether they had alcohol in their system, I don't want to talk about them, period."... I've heard so many racist jokes told at the local comedy club, my wife and I can no longer go back... One of my aunts was talking at X-Mas dinner about my great uncle, who cut 1 of his 4 kids out of the family because she married a black man... she says "Oh, I guess one of his daughter's married a coloured fellow, and they never really talked after that... I dunno if there were any problems with her husband or what... Oh, we can't wait to go back and visit next summer, it's so beautiful out there..." My boss recently told me "Make sure you lock the truck in that neighbourhood, there's a lot of sketchy drunk Natives over there..." 3 different white co-workers of mine have casually dropped the N-word in conversation with me... Do you understand how all of these comments are completely devastating? Do you understand that by doubting Ironfist's account of the things his own friends have said, you're de-valuing his experience, and all of our experiences with these type of people... these "trump supporters"?

Your talking points and this conversation literally make me nauseous, so I need to bow out here, but just please stop playing devil's advocate to defend racists you don't know.

[Gregg]

Nobody is being forced out here, nobody. Anyone who leaves, drops out, or just becomes a passive viewer, is doing so by their own choice. There have been no attacks on anyone, spirited responses, yes. Sometimes over MY line, but it's almost always followed by a civil debate. It's the old line "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"...those people chose to leave the kitchen. No reflection on them other than they were tired of arguing...

I do disagree with you in that many many times I have witnessed attacks on others.

In addition I have received some emails saying goodbye as this place is not longer much fun.

This is sad to me.

[Gregg]

If you can't handle criticism, seriously, drop out of controversial topics. If you say something stupid (as I've done many many times on here!)... expect to receive pushback, otherwise don't post!

This has come up many times now, so I need to clarify that YES, playing devil's advocate (as many MANY right wingers do on every instance of racism) defending the racist side of a situation, without knowing anything about the individuals involved in the situation, is racist. Showing support for racists is racist. Like the tiki-torch nazis in Charlottesville... people who want to defend the intentions of clearly racist people without having met them... well, hate to break this to you, but that's supporting racism.

I'm not saying YOU ARE a racist, I'm saying that you're making arguments that are based in racism by discounting Ironfist's claims of his own circle of friends' statements and beliefs.

I live in a place where racism is so rampant, it's really hard for me to listen to racism apologists. Sorry if this particular response has hurt your feelings, but it really hurts my feelings to see this nonsense response again and again... I've had aunts and uncles tell me, regarding Native teenagers being drowned in the river (about 10 of them now): "If you don't want to talk about whether they had alcohol in their system, I don't want to talk about them, period."... I've heard so many racist jokes told at the local comedy club, my wife and I can no longer go back... One of my aunts was talking at X-Mas dinner about my great uncle, who cut 1 of his 4 kids out of the family because she married a black man... she says "Oh, I guess one of his daughter's married a coloured fellow, and they never really talked after that... I dunno if there were any problems with her husband or what... Oh, we can't wait to go back and visit next summer, it's so beautiful out there..." My boss recently told me "Make sure you lock the truck in that neighbourhood, there's a lot of sketchy drunk Natives over there..." 3 different white co-workers of mine have casually dropped the N-word in conversation with me... Do you understand how all of these comments are completely devastating? Do you understand that by doubting Ironfist's account of the things his own friends have said, you're de-valuing his experience, and all of our experiences with these type of people... these "trump supporters"?

Your talking points and this conversation literally make me nauseous, so I need to bow out here, but just please stop playing devil's advocate to defend racists you don't know.

I am sincerely sorry that you live is such a racist place. It explains a lot.

That said there is a way to have discourse without calling names or insinuating character issues.

In your first statement you tell me that I have to accept or drop out. If not I can expect what...poor treatment? Nope. I will speak out against that. And I am not defending racists of any kind much less those I do not know.

It seems you have somehow erroneously connected me to the bigots that are in your life. This angers you. Be careful not to act like them.

If I read your first and last sentence. It would appear that it is you who cannot stand criticism and are choosing to leave the conversation.

[chancellor]

So talking in broad strokes about racist tendencies in right-wingers is not okay... why?

Because it's bullshit, and either you know it and are lying or are woefully ignorant about a place you don't live. It'd be the equivalent of me saying you're spouting lefty talking points about Thunder Bay and see racism under every doily based on my few visits to your town. Or, that if racism is so prevalent in your town, you might be pointing to the wrong side of the political spectrum vis a vis racism, given the Trudeau election vote count I'm looking at of Liberals versus Conservatives in the Thunder Bay area.

[Teenwolf]

Because it's bullshit, and either you know it and are lying or are woefully ignorant about a place you don't live. It'd be the equivalent of me saying you're spouting lefty talking points about Thunder Bay and see racism under every doily based on my few visits to your town. Or, that if racism is so prevalent in your town, you might be pointing to the wrong side of the political spectrum vis a vis racism, given the Trudeau election vote count I'm looking at of Liberals versus Conservatives in the Thunder Bay area.

So I'm either lying or woefully ignorant. Someone seems triggered!

I've never claimed that Liberals or left wingers don't have problems with racism... liberals who believe they're "not racist" are a major part of the equation, because they can be as unwilling to push for change as right-wingers at times. Clearly, the right wing has more vocal racists than the left wing, but I'm sure that statement pisses you off, and I really don't care to argue such an obvious point. You won't read any links I share, as nobody here does, so I won't post them.

Glad we're having such productive dialogue though!

[swampdragon]

I am confused - are people suggesting that many or even most Trump supporters are NOT racist - of course Trump supporters are racist because the leader they support is racist.

[DMT]

I am confused - are people suggesting that many or even most Trump supporters are NOT racist - of course Trump supporters are racist because the leader they support is racist.

From our perspective yes, but the non-racists who support Trump take offense because they don't consider themselves racist. So cognitive dissonance doesn't allow them to see that Trump is racist, else they have to look in the mirror. And all of those white people mentioned above who think the U.S. is not slanted in their favor are racists. Ignoring facts in order to protect their own egos doesn't excuse them sorry. Of course this doesn't make them KKK members...racism is not a black or white issue.

This is why the two sides are never going to come to any sort of greater understanding.

[[echo]]

I am confused - are people suggesting that many or even most Trump supporters are NOT racist - of course Trump supporters are racist because the leader they support is racist.

Did you think Obama was racist?