President Donald Trump

[Sour Masher]

2+2= 97! Wow, you’re a special mathematician. For all the mocking of anything US that you continually spew, such as our laws, our elections, our health care systems, and well, just about everything else, apparently Canada’s educational system isn’t better than ours! I don’t believe I was mocking Soul Masher and I’ve never met his mother nor do I know anything about her or her mental health. I have read his posts and I understand he is a reasonable individual who has a difficult time understanding how someone he cares about could support Trump. How she came to support Trump isn’t something I could know. I have an equally hard time understanding why people I care about are so invested in the anti-Trump resistance and are so susceptible Trump Deragement Syndrome. But you be you!

Bernie, you know I like you and respect your continued call for respectful discourse, my good sir, so take this response with that in mind. I think when you use the term Trump Derangement Syndrome you are being condescending and dismissive to those vehemently opposed to Trump's presidency for what they feel are very valid reasons. It is a little perplexing to me, because I know you are not a fan of Trump, and you've acknowledged many negative things about him, but it is also clear that you don't see him the same way I do. You may see parallels between how some react to Trump and how some reacted to Obama, and you don't see it as healthy or normal to have so such a visceral and negative reaction to the person who, for better or worse, is our president. You've tried several times to soften the intensity of the negative response to Trump by highlighting some behaviors and stances of Trump's that may be positive, like the potential for him to denuclearize N. Korea (which I don't think will happen), to show that not everything he does should get a knee-jerk reaction of negativity, and that maybe he is not, in every way, so very different from other politicians. But I don't see it that way.

I fully admit that I feel, write, and talk about Trump in a way that is different and more angry than I have about any other president, or even any other politician or public figure, in my lifetime. But I don't think my more intense reaction is an overreaction, because I don't see Trump as just another shade of gray on the political spectrum. He isn't just another politician I don't agree with. My reaction to him is more extreme, because he is more extreme. Whereas you may think it is myopic, unhealthy, and counter-productive to be continually enraged by Trump, I think it is a necessary response to combat the normalization of a political figure that in so many ways is antithetical to our country's greatest ideals. Trump may share many ideals with other right-wing politicians. He may occasionally act as they would act, and talk as they would talk. And I agree that my visceral response to him, as someone who disagrees with those stances, would be counter-productive to healthy dialogue, if that is all I was reacting to. But he is more and less than just a far-right president. He represents to me an existential threat to my idea of an ideal America. He represents to me the very worst of us, pandering to racists, bigots, misogynists, pushing and prodding to erode the 4th estate, and the vital checks and balances of the three branches of government. I have no doubt, based on actions and words, that he would happily toss aside our whole system of government to take on the mantle of king/despot/dictator, if we let him. He does not believe in or support democracy. He is a wanna-be despot who, if we allowed him, would eliminate the checks and balances of our system, tear up the first amendment, eliminate due process, and regress all of our country's slow, painful, unfinished progress toward equality and fair treatment and opportunity for all, not just white males.

If you can accept that is how I see Trump, that is who I think he is, and that is what I think he represents, than I think you will be able to accept that I don't think it is deranged to respond to him in an unprecedented way. The fervor of those who fight against Trump may seem so extreme as to suggest mental illness to you if you see Trump and the movement that elected him as just another swing from left to right, a regrettable election of a crass showman, but not someone, deep down, so very different from other politicians or political movements. But I don't see Trump that way. For me, it would be deranged not to rail against him, given who I see him to be.

[Sour Masher]

I think we have a lot of points of agreement, perhaps just different estimations as to the overall scope of issues.

Regarding your last paragraph, one that seems to be repeated over and over here. Do you have any data that on the number of Sanders supporters who did not vote for Clinton ? In some regard I think it is ridiculous to think that Hillary or any other politician has a right to expect people to vote for them, like they don't get to choose who to vote for....but I also understand why it would be frustrating for people that voted for Clinton, assuming it is true. I recall headlines that more Sanders supporters voted for Hillary than Clinton voters supported Obama in 2008. Anyway, I'd be interested if you have data that supports the assertion that large numbers of diehard Bernie supporters didn't vote for Clinton. Until then it's just fake news ! : )

Ha, I had to chuckle at the fake news line. I admit I don't have that data. My views on that are wholely anecdotal, which, of course, is the lowest and least accurate form of data. I do know Bernie supporters who didn't vote for HRC. I can't be too mad at them for the reasons you outline--it is wrong to dictate to/force Bernie supporters to vote for a person they did not want to be president. I get that. I don't, however, get those Bernie supporters that went so far as to vote for Trump. To me that is unforgivable and hypocritical, because at that point it is clear to me you are not a real supporter of what Bernie stood for. You just want to watch the world burn. I don't think anyone can convince me of the logic of a Bernie supporter turning into a Trump supporter. I think it is offensive to Bernie to suggest they are two sides to the same coin. I have no data that suggests enough people made that flip to matter in the 2016 election, but to me that fact that at least some diehard Bernie supporters voted for Trump taints the purity of his movement and message. The idea that those folks were at one point in his crowds, left those rallies, and put on a MAGA hat made me rethink the motivations of some Bernie supporters.

[Teenwolf]

I think we have a lot of points of agreement, perhaps just different estimations as to the overall scope of issues.

Regarding your last paragraph, one that seems to be repeated over and over here. Do you have any data that on the number of Sanders supporters who did not vote for Clinton ? In some regard I think it is ridiculous to think that Hillary or any other politician has a right to expect people to vote for them, like they don't get to choose who to vote for....but I also understand why it would be frustrating for people that voted for Clinton, assuming it is true. I recall headlines that more Sanders supporters voted for Hillary than Clinton voters supported Obama in 2008. Anyway, I'd be interested if you have data that supports the assertion that large numbers of diehard Bernie supporters didn't vote for Clinton. Until then it's just fake news ! : )

Some brilliant posts from Sour Masher and gcstomp here, but I want to add my voice of contention to the idea that Bernie-crats lost Hillary the election... the vast majority of Sanders' supporters ended up voting for Hillary, from all the coverage that I've seen... most of the whack-a-doo far leftists that I follow claimed they were voting for Hillary as the lesser of two evils, and claimed to be ready to attack Hillary on the issues once she was elected. Very few took the Susan Sarandon stance, which was basically "burn it all down, and rebuild... Trump accomplishes this faster."

Especially when Bernie went out and campaigned for Hillary... it's so weird that people still want to somehow blame him for her epic failure.

[Teenwolf]

Ha, I had to chuckle at the fake news line. I admit I don't have that data. My views on that are wholely anecdotal, which, of course, is the lowest and least accurate form of data. I do know Bernie supporters who didn't vote for HRC. I can't be too mad at them for the reasons you outline--it is wrong to dictate to/force Bernie supporters to vote for a person they did not want to be president. I get that. I don't, however, get those Bernie supporters that went so far as to vote for Trump. To me that is unforgivable and hypocritical, because at that point it is clear to me you are not a real supporter of what Bernie stood for. You just want to watch the world burn. I don't think anyone can convince me of the logic of a Bernie supporter turning into a Trump supporter. I think it is offensive to Bernie to suggest they are two sides to the same coin. I have no data that suggests enough people made that flip to matter in the 2016 election, but to me that fact that at least some diehard Bernie supporters voted for Trump taints the purity of his movement and message. The idea that those folks were at one point in his crowds, left those rallies, and put on a MAGA hat made me rethink the motivations of some Bernie supporters.

I agree 100%, that if Sanders voters were moving in a big way towards Trump, I'd be suspicious and concerned about that movement, but it appears to be a myth.

12% of Clinton primary voters ended up voting Trump in the election. That's not out of the ordinary, apparently. Very accurate polling, 50K polled on these topics.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

A more important caveat, perhaps, is that other statistics suggest that this level of "defection" isn't all that out of the ordinary. Believing that all those Sanders voters somehow should have been expected to not vote for Trump may be to misunderstand how primary voters behave.

For example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)

[Sour Masher]

Some brilliant posts from Sour Masher and gcstomp here, but I want to add my voice of contention to the idea that Bernie-crats lost Hillary the election... the vast majority of Sanders' supporters ended up voting for Hillary, from all the coverage that I've seen... most of the whack-a-doo far leftists that I follow claimed they were voting for Hillary as the lesser of two evils, and claimed to be ready to attack Hillary on the issues once she was elected. Very few took the Susan Sarandon stance, which was basically "burn it all down, and rebuild... Trump accomplishes this faster."

Especially when Bernie went out and campaigned for Hillary... it's so weird that people still want to somehow blame him for her epic failure.

To be clear, I don't blame Bernie or the vast majority of his supporters for Trump winning. I only meant to air my anger/disappointment in those very few--likely far too few to matter--Bernie supporters who did flip to voting for Trump--not just not voting for HRC, but actually voting for Trump. I probably shouldn't have even gone there, as I agree that small minority of his supporters likely did not affect the election outcome.

EDIT: Based on the link Teenwolf posted, I'm reconsidering my stance here. Whether 12% was in line with historic norms as a defection rate for the primary runner up to shift support to the opposing party candidate, if 12% of Bernie supporters actually voted for Trump, then they actually did matter to the outcome. That is very disappointing to me.

[Sour Masher]

I agree 100%, that if Sanders voters were moving in a big way towards Trump, I'd be suspicious and concerned about that movement, but it appears to be a myth.

12% of Clinton primary voters ended up voting Trump in the election. That's not out of the ordinary, apparently. Very accurate polling, 50K polled on these topics.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/54581...p-survey-finds

Thanks for this link. It is a bit surprising to me that defections in those numbers are normal, but to me, the 2016 election warranted abnormal behavior. Thinking about it now, I guess i get those defection rates in general, but I don't get them in the special case of going from Bernie supporter to Trump supporter. They are just so, so different in their ideals. It seems to me to be such an extreme shift. Really, that link makes me more mad, as I assumed far less than 12% of Bernie supporters (you say HRC supporters, but the article says 12% of Bernie supporters) voted for Trump. If that figure is accurate, that may have actually given Trump the election (i know it would be in line with past defection rates, but it is still way higher than I thought and hoped for). I never considered that as a strong possibility before seeing those numbers.

[Teenwolf]

Thanks for this link. It is a bit surprising to me that defections in those numbers are normal, but to me, the 2016 election warranted abnormal behavior. Thinking about it now, I guess i get those defection rates in general, but I don't get them in the special case of going from Bernie supporter to Trump supporter. They are just so, so different in their ideals. It seems to me to be such an extreme shift. Really, that link makes me more mad, as I assumed far less than 12% of Bernie supporters (you say HRC supporters, but the article says 12% of Bernie supporters) voted for Trump. If that figure is accurate, that may have actually given Trump the election (i know it would be in line with past defection rates, but it is still way higher than I thought and hoped for). I never considered that as a strong possibility before seeing those numbers.

I get what you're saying, that the leap from Sanders to Trump is bigger than the typical vote-switch due to their extreme polar opposite political positions. 12% seems like a grain of sand on the beach compared to 50%+ staying home. I'd prefer to focus on swaying non-voters to become politically active, rather than trying to convince anybody politically active to switch sides.

Too much "go team" on both sides right now, I'd prefer more people question their vote than sign up as cheerleaders.

[Sour Masher]

I get what you're saying, that the leap from Sanders to Trump is bigger than the typical vote-switch due to their extreme polar opposite political positions. 12% seems like a grain of sand on the beach compared to 50%+ staying home. I'd prefer to focus on swaying non-voters to become politically active, rather than trying to convince anybody politically active to switch sides.

Too much "go team" on both sides right now, I'd prefer more people question their vote than sign up as cheerleaders.

Yeah, good point. I've always been amazed at the level of voter apathy not just in the US, but in many countries across the world. You'd think more folks would want to have a say in who is making important decisions for them. I guess a lot of folks don't think it matters much. I can see that in many elections when you have a moderate on both sides. For me it mattered a lot in 2016.

[The Feral Slasher]

Thanks for this link. It is a bit surprising to me that defections in those numbers are normal, but to me, the 2016 election warranted abnormal behavior. Thinking about it now, I guess i get those defection rates in general, but I don't get them in the special case of going from Bernie supporter to Trump supporter. They are just so, so different in their ideals. It seems to me to be such an extreme shift. Really, that link makes me more mad, as I assumed far less than 12% of Bernie supporters (you say HRC supporters, but the article says 12% of Bernie supporters) voted for Trump. If that figure is accurate, that may have actually given Trump the election (i know it would be in line with past defection rates, but it is still way higher than I thought and hoped for). I never considered that as a strong possibility before seeing those numbers.

lol, this is where I tell you to go read the article in Heyelander's post. Anyone who supported Bernie and then switched to Trump was never at all satisfied with the status quo, and was never going to vote for Hillary. How is this so hard to understand ? And why is Bernie responsible for people who are unhappy with the current system ? It's like the Democrats don't want to appeal to anyone outside of the group of hard core Democrats, which is getting smaller and smaller. I just don't understand this line of thought.

[dslaw]

Yeah, good point. I've always been amazed at the level of voter apathy not just in the US, but in many countries across the world. You'd think more folks would want to have a say in who is making important decisions for them. I guess a lot of folks don't think it matters much. I can see that in many elections when you have a moderate on both sides. For me it mattered a lot in 2016.

I have in-laws in Florida that won't vote because "one vote doesn't matter". I told them it may be true that one doesn't but his vote and the wife's vote is two votes. If the kids see you voting every year I would think they will be more likely to vote (no stats on this, just that I think it would be true). Especially since they live in Florida and everyone there should recognize that you only needed 1,000 voters out of a few million eligible to show up and the entire history of country may have changed after 2000. <----maybe a slight exaggeration but it very well could have been different. I didn't even bring up the "don't vote, don't bitch" theory I usually start with.

[Hornsby]

Bottom line is simple...2016 is over, it's dead and the results are in. Trump is the President and we have to deal with that until he either resigns, gets booted, or loses in 2020. It's also not unusual for people to flip parties for the primary to try and influence the results for the general. So really nothing new there.

Hillary lost. Period. Doesn't matter if she was a horrible candidate or not. Trump IS a horrible President on just about every level. That's what we have to deal with. Quit beating the dead horse...move forward, starting with the midterms.

[Sour Masher]

lol, this is where I tell you to go read the article in Heyelander's post. Anyone who supported Bernie and then switched to Trump was never at all satisfied with the status quo, and was never going to vote for Hillary. How is this so hard to understand ? And why is Bernie responsible for people who are unhappy with the current system ? It's like the Democrats don't want to appeal to anyone outside of the group of hard core Democrats, which is getting smaller and smaller. I just don't understand this line of thought.

I don't understand how you got any of that from my responses. It seems like you are trying to set me up as a strawman for your stance here. I never said Bernie voters should support Hillary in that post or my other posts. I said they should not have voted for Trump. I never said Bernie was responsible for people being unhappy with the status quo. I never said Democrats shouldn't try to appeal to Bernie supporters. I never said any of those things. If you want to justify why a Bernie supporter should have voted for Trump, just because he also, in a completely opposite way, was a figure outside the status quo, I'm all ears. But don't misrepresent my positions about Bernie, the majority of his supporters, the DNC, or HRC. I feel very confident in my conviction that a Bernie voter who switched to voting for Trump--and again, I clarify that as distinct from a Bernie supporter who could not bring themselves to vote for HRC--were never really supporters of what Bernie Sanders stands for. Refraining from supporting or voting for HRC as an establishment candidate that represents a lot many perceive as wrong with the DNC is different in my mind than actively supporting and voting for Donald Trump, just because he was the guy opposing HRC.

[The Feral Slasher]

I don't understand how you got any of that from my responses. It seems like you are trying to set me up as a strawman for your stance here. I never said Bernie voters should support Hillary in that post or my other posts. I said they should not have voted for Trump. I never said Bernie was responsible for people being unhappy with the status quo. I never said Democrats shouldn't try to appeal to Bernie supporters. I never said any of those things. If you want to justify why a Bernie supporter should have voted for Trump, just because he also, in a completely opposite way, was a figure outside the status quo, I'm all ears. But don't misrepresent my positions about Bernie, the majority of his supporters, the DNC, or HRC. I feel very confident in my conviction that a Bernie voter who switched to voting for Trump--and again, I clarify that as distinct as a Bernie supporter who could not bring themselves to vote for HRC or the establishment they hate--did the wrong thing, and were never really supporters of what Bernie Sanders stands for.

my apologies, I guess i don't understand your position and who you are mad at. but that is ok probably no need to rehash it again

[Sour Masher]

Bottom line is simple...2016 is over, it's dead and the results are in. Trump is the President and we have to deal with that until he either resigns, gets booted, or loses in 2020. It's also not unusual for people to flip parties for the primary to try and influence the results for the general. So really nothing new there.

Hillary lost. Period. Doesn't matter if she was a horrible candidate or not. Trump IS a horrible President on just about every level. That's what we have to deal with. Quit beating the dead horse...move forward, starting with the midterms.

True, but those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Examining what led to Trump's win may help make sure we don't make the same mistakes in 2020.

[Sour Masher]

my apologies, I guess i don't understand your position and who you are mad at. but that is ok probably no need to rehash it again

I am mad at Trump and those who actively ignore everything I've spelled out about what makes him dangerous. I don't know how I can be clearer about that. Lots of different people voted for Trump for lots of different reasons, and I think they were all wrong to do so for the reasons I've spelled out time and again. I think Republicans who support Trump are misguided in doing so, because he represents more harm to conservative ideals than good in the long run. And I think Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for Trump are especially wrong-headed in doing that, because he represents the opposite of what Sanders stands for. Your confusion seems to stem from you not seeing a distinction between a Bernie Sanders supporter who refrained from voting for either HRC or Trump and a Bernie Sanders supporter who pulled the lever for Trump. I do see a distinction between them. If someone did not support Sanders for his specific positions, but did so more because Sanders wasn't status quo, I think that person was wrong headed and naive to the notion that as bad as things are, they could be much worse. The idea that ANY candidate, no matter how vile, is better than an establishment candidate just seems absurdly naive to me. Raging against the machine to make a better machine makes sense to me. Supporting someone who wants to replace the current broken machine with a worse one makes no sense to me.