President Donald Trump

[The Feral Slasher]

Yes, it is an interesting article and point, and it is illuminating to a big reason why Trump won. However, I suspect I diverge from you and some other folks on the root causes of the whole, when people don't trust government institutions, they are prone to vote for a someone bashing the systems they no long trust no matter what his other stances premise. 1. while that is interesting research, it isn't the whole story of Trump's success (a point I'm sure we all agree on), and 2. the systems of government that we have are not as broken as most people think. Yes, there are many flaws in government, and even more in our media, but I believe right-winged media outlets, most prominently Fox News, and the rise of more fringe alt-right sources are largely responsible for fostering in many out-sized beliefs in the brokenness of our government and society, which created the perfect opportunity for Trump to rise. They have trumped up for years how all other media lies to everyone, how the liberal government is out to take their guns, trample their religious beliefs and values, take their money, take their very pre-ordained place in the world and give it to others, not for a sense of fairness, but simply to appease their base of minority voters. They have cultivated anger, fear, and anxiety in millions for the entirety of the Obama presidency, and Trump is the fruits of their labors. He played the outsider better than the others, so he won, despite also being an outsider to common decency, intelligence, or preparedness for the esteemed position he sought and obtained. And all of this despite the undeniable facts that the country under Obama was in much better shape than the right made it out to Obama never took people's guns, he didn't disfranchise white people, or Christians. He ushered us through a tough recession--maybe not as well as he might have, but things can also have been worse. Things have not been horrible for most Americans over the last 8 years, but someone FoX News got millions to believe their whole way of life was under constant attack.

I think a large majority of Americans disagree with you on the part I put in bold. Your analysis also doesn't account for the large number of Americans who were receptive to Bernie Sanders message. I think everyone would agree that it didn't come from Fox news. What is your explanation for that ? It seems that there is a large faction of upper middle class Hilary/Democratic Establishment voters who totally discount the idea that people can believe that the government is not serving their interest. they must be stupid or brainwashed, because clearly the government is representing them effectively. I'd add that all the statistics I read support the idea that government is representing interests other than everyday Americans. But I'd certainly be interested and open to evidence to the contrary.

[nullnor]

i think, like healthcare, the opportunity to go to college should be a human right. and that you can draw the line and say if the government isn't fully supporting something that you think is essential, it is failing.

[Sour Masher]

I think a large majority of Americans disagree with you on the part I put in bold. Your analysis also doesn't account for the large number of Americans who were receptive to Bernie Sanders message. I think everyone would agree that it didn't come from Fox news. What is your explanation for that ? It seems that there is a large faction of upper middle class Hilary/Democratic Establishment voters who totally discount the idea that people can believe that the government is not serving their interest. they must be stupid or brainwashed, because clearly the government is representing them effectively. I'd add that all the statistics I read support the idea that government is representing interests other than everyday Americans. But I'd certainly be interested and open to evidence to the contrary.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting the Democratic party has done a great job of serving the people in the ways they claim they want to. I'm not suggesting they haven't taken lots of their voters for granted, placating them with platitudes rather than delivering on promises. And as Chomsky and others have pointed out for decades, many of these problems we all face in this country and in others are not the result of just the failings of particular politicians lying to us or failing us. They are systemic problems in our political system, funded as it is by oligarchs who are happy to keep the stats quo of haves controlling have nots.

This more intellectual understanding of the problems in our political system, I think, is what fueled Bernie's almost rise to power. I'm not suggesting there are not intellectual opponents to the status quo on the right, but I don't believe they are what led to Trump's ascension. I think it was largely ill informed folks riled into false fervor over fictional wars on Christmas and thinly veiled appeals to maintaining white male privleges by Fox News and alt right media.

The reason I think Bernie fell a bit short (as I've said before, I don't condone HRC or the DNC for their treatment of Bernie, but I also don't think their mistreatment of him is what cost him the nomination), while Trump did not, is that, ultimately, many on the left had too many concerns about Bernie's overall preparedness for the totality of the presidency, and his ability to do anything substantive within our political system if elected. That second point is a key distinction. While many on the right bought Trump as an agent of positive change or at least welcome chaos disrupting the status quo, not enough people, myself included, believed Bernie could actually accomplish any of the things that distnguished him as better than HRC or establishment Dems in general. Certainly not in the short term with a Republican controlled Congress, and likely not long term given the sorts of people, repubs and Dems, the majority of the states in this country elect. Bernie supporters on the coasts were never going to be able to get enough people in across the heartlands to support a far left agenda. So why support him over a flawed, but competent and far superior to Trump candidate? And even more, why abandon the party he ran in, even going so far as to shift support to Trump, who is in many ways his antithesis, once Bernie lost and HRC was the only thing standing in the way of a Trump presidency?

I think some also worried Bernie would fair poorly in the general. I think the right would have loved if he was their opponent. Trump would have hit him hard on issues related to taxes, the economy, and big government. In hindsight, it would have been interesting to see how that would have played out, but at the time I think most assumed HRC was the safer choice to run against Trump.

As a guy who likes Bernie and loved what his successful run forced the Democratic Party to change in response to his tremendous support, his 2016 run will forever be tainted in my mind by the role diehard supporters of his who refused to do what he asked them to do, support HRC to defeat Trump, played in Trump winning. Bernie did not want Trump to win, but some of his supporters did, because it meant HRC and the DNC that did Bernie dirty would lose. That was a selfish stance, as it also meant all the people and positions they cared about would be worse off than if HRC had defeated Trump. I don't deny the problems our government has, but I don't think they are so dire as to justify wanting to see the whole thing burn to the ground, and supportmg Trump to see if he is the guy who could make it happen. I think those who think this way are naive to how much worse our government could be if reshaped in a Trumpian way.

[Bernie Brewer]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...cy-really.html

The piece you linked was excellent. I suspect that those entrenched in the “resistance” will, unfortunately, never read it, and if they, do they will dismiss it. I didn’t vote for Trump but as the article suggests a lot of votes for Trump weren’t “for” him but against the status quo.

[Bernie Brewer]

Maybe it's because they are good people. That is not something incompatible with liking Trump.

J

That can’t possibly be true. Are you really telling us that at least some of the people who voted against HRC are good people. Ridiculous. That’s absurd.

[Teenwolf]

That can’t possibly be true. Are you really telling us that at least some of the people who voted against HRC are good people. Ridiculous. That’s absurd.

Does it make you feel good to mock people like Sour Masher, who basically had his mother's personality warped and distorted by Trump media?

You're so damn short-sighted.

[Bernie Brewer]

Does it make you feel good to mock people like Sour Masher, who basically had his mother's personality warped and distorted by Trump media?

You're so damn short-sighted.

2+2= 97! Wow, you’re a special mathematician. For all the mocking of anything US that you continually spew, such as our laws, our elections, our health care systems, and well, just about everything else, apparently Canada’s educational system isn’t better than ours! I don’t believe I was mocking Soul Masher and I’ve never met his mother nor do I know anything about her or her mental health. I have read his posts and I understand he is a reasonable individual who has a difficult time understanding how someone he cares about could support Trump. How she came to support Trump isn’t something I could know. I have an equally hard time understanding why people I care about are so invested in the anti-Trump resistance and are so susceptible Trump Deragement Syndrome. But you be you!

[gcstomp]

Bernie, you absolutely are short hand being snarky and dismissive in your posts, whether you recognize it or not. Also, you use labels anti-Trump resistance, and Trump Derangement Syndrome. What do these mean to you, other than being an out rather than post meaningful dialogue. Who are these people that mean so much to you that you dismiss with these labels. Actually, how about we take a mulligan, and you post some real thoughts.

[Teenwolf]

2+2= 97! Wow, you’re a special mathematician. For all the mocking of anything US that you continually spew, such as our laws, our elections, our health care systems, and well, just about everything else, apparently Canada’s educational system isn’t better than ours! I don’t believe I was mocking Soul Masher and I’ve never met his mother nor do I know anything about her or her mental health. I have read his posts and I understand he is a reasonable individual who has a difficult time understanding how someone he cares about could support Trump. How she came to support Trump isn’t something I could know. I have an equally hard time understanding why people I care about are so invested in the anti-Trump resistance and are so susceptible Trump Deragement Syndrome. But you be you!

EDIT: Not getting sucked into your BS.

[Bernie Brewer]

Bernie, you absolutely are short hand being snarky and dismissive in your posts, whether you recognize it or not. Also, you use labels anti-Trump resistance, and Trump Derangement Syndrome. What do these mean to you, other than being an out rather than post meaningful dialogue. Who are these people that mean so much to you that you dismiss with these labels. Actually, how about we take a mulligan, and you post some real thoughts.

But, you’re ok with Teenwolf inference of my prior post? And, there was no intention to be shorthanded, I guess I’m just not very good at being snarky! As for Dismissive, I think this is prudent advice for everyone that we should all be a little less dismissive and open to viewpoints that may challenge our own.

[Teenwolf]

And you’re ok with Teenwolf inference of my prior post?

Sour Masher posted some incredibly detailed and thought-provoking experiences he's had with his mother being turned into a Trump supporter. He ALSO posted a very detailed and thought-provoking analysis of the very question that you mock "Are Trump supporters 'bad people'"...

You posted dismissive and inflammatory trash. Do better.

[Bernie Brewer]

Sour Masher posted some incredibly detailed and thought-provoking experiences he's had with his mother being turned into a Trump supporter. He ALSO posted a very detailed and thought-provoking analysis of the very question that you mock "Are Trump supporters 'bad people'"...

You posted dismissive and inflammatory trash. Do better.

And I will if you will.

[Teenwolf]

But, you’re ok with Teenwolf inference of my prior post? And, there was no intention to be shorthanded, I guess I’m just not very good at being snarky! As for Dismissive, I think this is prudent advice for everyone that we should all be a little less dismissive and open to viewpoints that may challenge our own.

I'll start with an olive branch.

I understand why you feel a need to defend Trump voters. They're your family and friends, and whether they've been co-erced into voting for Satan himself, you can't simply abandon them as 'bad people', just because they voted for one...

However, I believe Sour Masher summed it up better than I can, so I recommend you go back and re-read his thoughts on it. Have a better day, we're not enemies, and we share more viewpoints than you'd suspect.

I'd also like to apologize again for my weeks-old rant about the US being a "s-hole" country... I know it strikes a nerve when I use the terms your President uses, but my point was completely lost in my offensiveness. I also hold no feelings of superiority via my country of origin, Canada has it's share of Trump-ists, as well as problems.

[Mithrandir]

Hammer does not state why he would support Trump over HRC, would be just a head banging on wall experience for all of us if he did. HRC the character was successfully shaped as a villain by decades of false messaging from Fox as well as a foreign power. She withstood dozens of hours of withering hate politicized questioning under guise of congressional hearings the likes of which Trump would not have survived for even 5 minutes. Trump is a small minded habitual liar who is simply incapable of coming out clean as HRC did even if he has 1/10,000th the questioning under oath she sat for, but lets move on. She absolutely outclassed Trump in every debate, actually Trump did not even attempt to answer questions posed to him, he simply took openings to pursue attack talking points, but as substance takes a back seat to image, that had zero bearing on results.

We all believe we are doing the right things, and that we are smart, and we all think we are the heroes in our story. It is only the distance and perspective of the other that can reaffirm what is truth, and what is self delusion. Trump sees himself as really smart, and knows all the best words. He sees himself as someone who is draining the swamp, and putting the best people in charge. That personal view of his has no weight to truth, and it is from his statements that we can be sure how limited and vile this man is, but it is something beyond his ability to ever see that.

I feel that a Trump supporter simply views the world, and every trump word through such a different filter than my own that we effectively exist in different realities. A trump supporter, to me is akin to embracing some aspect of evil, be it racism, sexism, image over facts, snark over substance, that I see someone with the trump bumper sticker as if they are flaunting an ignorance beyond their sight. But again, as we are all heroes in our own stories, doing the right thing, this is a personal filter shaped by a particular lifetime of input. It is only in that one scene of Scarface where we ever have someone stand up and say they are the bad guy.

In sport we can measure a 96 mph fastball. In life, we cannot definitively measure the good of a man, we can only go by his statements and actions and through our own filter judge. Pol Pot I am sure felt he was the hero of his story as well. But I have no doubt, for my viewpoint, trump is not a good person, not a smart person, and not someone looking out for the overall pop over himself and other uber wealthy.

Dude, your posts about Trump and his supporters sum up exactly how I feel. I'm glad that you can put it into words much better than i can! Especially the different realities part.

[The Feral Slasher]

To be clear, I'm not suggesting the Democratic party has done a great job of serving the people in the ways they claim they want to. I'm not suggesting they haven't taken lots of their voters for granted, placating them with platitudes rather than delivering on promises. And as Chomsky and others have pointed out for decades, many of these problems we all face in this country and in others are not the result of just the failings of particular politicians lying to us or failing us. They are systemic problems in our political system, funded as it is by oligarchs who are happy to keep the stats quo of haves controlling have nots.

This more intellectual understanding of the problems in our political system, I think, is what fueled Bernie's almost rise to power. I'm not suggesting there are not intellectual opponents to the status quo on the right, but I don't believe they are what led to Trump's ascension. I think it was largely ill informed folks riled into false fervor over fictional wars on Christmas and thinly veiled appeals to maintaining white male privleges by Fox News and alt right media.

The reason I think Bernie fell a bit short (as I've said before, I don't condone HRC or the DNC for their treatment of Bernie, but I also don't think their mistreatment of him is what cost him the nomination), while Trump did not, is that, ultimately, many on the left had too many concerns about Bernie's overall preparedness for the totality of the presidency, and his ability to do anything substantive within our political system if elected. That second point is a key distinction. While many on the right bought Trump as an agent of positive change or at least welcome chaos disrupting the status quo, not enough people, myself included, believed Bernie could actually accomplish any of the things that distnguished him as better than HRC or establishment Dems in general. Certainly not in the short term with a Republican controlled Congress, and likely not long term given the sorts of people, repubs and Dems, the majority of the states in this country elect. Bernie supporters on the coasts were never going to be able to get enough people in across the heartlands to support a far left agenda. So why support him over a flawed, but competent and far superior to Trump candidate? And even more, why abandon the party he ran in, even going so far as to shift support to Trump, who is in many ways his antithesis, once Bernie lost and HRC was the only thing standing in the way of a Trump presidency?

I think some also worried Bernie would fair poorly in the general. I think the right would have loved if he was their opponent. Trump would have hit him hard on issues related to taxes, the economy, and big government. In hindsight, it would have been interesting to see how that would have played out, but at the time I think most assumed HRC was the safer choice to run against Trump.

As a guy who likes Bernie and loved what his successful run forced the Democratic Party to change in response to his tremendous support, his 2016 run will forever be tainted in my mind by the role diehard supporters of his who refused to do what he asked them to do, support HRC to defeat Trump, played in Trump winning. Bernie did not want Trump to win, but some of his supporters did, because it meant HRC and the DNC that did Bernie dirty would lose. That was a selfish stance, as it also meant all the people and positions they cared about would be worse off than if HRC had defeated Trump. I don't deny the problems our government has, but I don't think they are so dire as to justify wanting to see the whole thing burn to the ground, and supportmg Trump to see if he is the guy who could make it happen. I think those who think this way are naive to how much worse our government could be if reshaped in a Trumpian way.

I think we have a lot of points of agreement, perhaps just different estimations as to the overall scope of issues.

Regarding your last paragraph, one that seems to be repeated over and over here. Do you have any data that on the number of Sanders supporters who did not vote for Clinton ? In some regard I think it is ridiculous to think that Hillary or any other politician has a right to expect people to vote for them, like they don't get to choose who to vote for....but I also understand why it would be frustrating for people that voted for Clinton, assuming it is true. I recall headlines that more Sanders supporters voted for Hillary than Clinton voters supported Obama in 2008. Anyway, I'd be interested if you have data that supports the assertion that large numbers of diehard Bernie supporters didn't vote for Clinton. Until then it's just fake news ! : )