President Donald Trump

[DMT]

I was being sarcastic. Where’s that damn sarcasm emoji? But, I agree with what you wrote. Collusion in and of itself is not a crime at least not in this sense.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/12/what-is-collusion-215366

And, no, to answer revo, I’m not in a rush. In fact, I think I said early on in this thread that we should all wait and see where this leads before simply jumping to our own conclusions that for our politics comfortably. The news media isn’t investigating this, certainly not to the level of Mueller, but they have in many cases already passed judgment.

Much of the media has indeed way overstepped on this but the RW media in turn has been all too ready to dismiss the entire investigation as 'fake news'. Glenn Greenwald and The Intercept have provided good coverage and been demonized by some Democrats for being Putin apologists.

[Bernie Brewer]

Much of the media has indeed way overstepped on this but the RW media in turn has been all too ready to dismiss the entire investigation as 'fake news'. Glenn Greenwald and The Intercept have provided good coverage and been demonized by some Democrats for being Putin apologists.

I completely agree. Fox and some of the right wing media has been in the bag for Trump, which is as bad or worse than I consider legitimate news, such as CNN, which is so disappointing and frustrating. Print media seemingly has been less concerned about “entertaining” than reporting.

[gcstomp]

There is plenty you can comfortably say at this point. Trump won, and he had help from russia.

Trump circle, which always maintained not having russian connection, simply lied, we learn more daily but there were meetings with russians and that is not in dispute.

Trump clearly, though not charged yet, was involved in obstruction of an ongoing investigation. It is the whole reason he fired Comey, and you can know this from Trumps own words in the Lester Holt interview.

And 3rd, this report detailing 13 russians charged today spells out how Russia was heavily involved, in getting Trump elected. Putin mobilized a massive operation, not just in the targeting of our voting rolls in 20+ states, not just in the 2nd way of breaking in and leaking DNC files in strategic cherry picked times leading up to election, but this report today. Russia utilized and still uses troll farms full of skilled operators, who besides creating bots that auto spit out responses on sites, and smear memes, these people also infiltrate facebook, twitter, google, create other web presence, who posed as americans with prominent voices to take the online battle in changing hearts and minds. But also operatives came into this country, organized anti HRC rallies, down to giving instruction to the duped americans instruction and money to for instance build a platform on a flatbed truck, large enough for a prison cage, and hire an american to dress as HRC is prison garb. These russian operatives have names, titles, were given quotas, and had feedback on slow days on "not enough disparaging content" towards HRC.

Collusion is a rush to judgement, but Mueller, though being steadily attacked and targeted not just by FOX, but R in congress, is making steady progress in fleshing out what was already known, that russia attacked our election, and todays release was simply the very detailed expose on how. We also know Trump simply refuses to abide by congress 98 to 2 vote to hold russia to sanctions, and will not say a negative word about Putin, or admit what is detailed by the collective intel agencies not just of our country but others, that russia attacked our elections with a 3 prong approach, Trump calls it a hoax, repeats it, despite this being inarguable.

[Hornsby]

There is plenty you can comfortably say at this point. Trump won, and he had help from russia.

Trump circle, which always maintained not having russian connection, simply lied, we learn more daily but there were meetings with russians and that is not in dispute.

Trump clearly, though not charged yet, was involved in obstruction of an ongoing investigation. It is the whole reason he fired Comey, and you can know this from Trumps own words in the Lester Holt interview.

And 3rd, this report detailing 13 russians charged today spells out how Russia was heavily involved, in getting Trump elected. Putin mobilized a massive operation, not just in the targeting of our voting rolls in 20+ states, not just in the 2nd way of breaking in and leaking DNC files in strategic cherry picked times leading up to election, but this report today. Russia utilized and still uses troll farms full of skilled operators, who besides creating bots that auto spit out responses on sites, and smear memes, these people also infiltrate facebook, twitter, google, create other web presence, who posed as americans with prominent voices to take the online battle in changing hearts and minds. But also operatives came into this country, organized anti HRC rallies, down to giving instruction to the duped americans instruction and money to for instance build a platform on a flatbed truck, large enough for a prison cage, and hire an american to dress as HRC is prison garb. These russian operatives have names, titles, were given quotas, and had feedback on slow days on "not enough disparaging content" towards HRC.

Collusion is a rush to judgement, but Mueller, though being steadily attacked and targeted not just by FOX, but R in congress, is making steady progress in fleshing out what was already known, that russia attacked our election, and todays release was simply the very detailed expose on how. We also know Trump simply refuses to abide by congress 98 to 2 vote to hold russia to sanctions, and will not say a negative word about Putin, or admit what is detailed by the collective intel agencies not just of our country but others, that russia attacked our elections with a 3 prong approach, Trump calls it a hoax, repeats it, despite this being inarguable.

Wow...clear and concise.

[Bernie Brewer]

Wow...clear and concise.

Hmmm. Well, that makes one of us who feels that way. I know, be patient, there will be others.

[The Feral Slasher]

Hmmm. Well, that makes one of us who feels that way. I know, be patient, they’ll be others.

Well they infiltrated Google and paid for a flat bed truck....how could they lose ?

[revo]

Hmmm. Well, that makes one of us who feels that way. I know, be patient, they’ll be others.

Curious, what part of his post do you disagree with? Seems every point he made had facts backing it up.

[Bernie Brewer]

Curious, what part of his post do you disagree with? Seems every point he made had facts backing it up.

I didn’t say that he presented no facts, I said I didn’t think it was clear and concise. And, I am not one to offer opinions on conciseness, so I’m only arguing the clear part.

As for fact based, I’ll agree there are facts twisted between a whole lot of opinion.

It’s too long and boring (not his post, the mind exercise I would go through) to go paragraph by paragraph, so I’ll just parse out what I believe to be the facts and strip away the opinion. Oh, nevermind, I took the challenge.

There is plenty you can comfortably say at this point.I think we know certain facts, but unless you’re involved in the Mueller investigation, I don’t think there is much we can say with any level of “comfort” but that’s just my opinion.

Trump won Fact, and he had help from russia Opinion, we’re certain Russia tried, are we really certain “he” had help. So far, it appears Russia’s goal was disruption as the indictment stated, but it began before Trump was even a candidate. I don’t have any doubt Putin wanted Hillary to lose, as he didn’t like her from various accounts, including Hillary’s own, but he also wanted to destabilize the US and in this he/they were successful.

Trump circle, which always maintained not having russian connection, simply lied, we learn more daily but there were meetings with russians and that is not in dispute. Fact is they lied. But we still don’t know what those meeting accomplished, if anything. I’d rather wait before making any final decisions on those. And, are we really learning more daily about these meetings, if we are, I guess I need to watch more TV because the WaPo, NYT, WSJ, Politico, and other sources that I read aren’t reporting it.

Trump clearly, though not charged yet, was involved in obstruction of an ongoing investigation. It is the whole reason he fired Comey, and you can know this from Trumps own words in the Lester Holt interview. This is hopeful opinion. The presumption is that he will be charged and firing Comey, as an example, is clear evidence of obstruction. It is not, at least not as of now. This is one of the reason the investigation proceeds. If they had this, wouldn’t that be pretty much game over?

And 3rd, this report detailing 13 russians charged today spells out how Russia was heavily involved, Fact in getting Trump elected. Opinion. Putin mobilized a massive operation, not just in the targeting of our voting rolls in 20+ states, not just in the 2nd way of breaking in and leaking DNC files in strategic cherry picked times leading up to election, but this report today. Russia utilized and still uses troll farms full of skilled operators, who besides creating bots that auto spit out responses on sites, and smear memes, these people also infiltrate facebook, twitter, google, create other web presence, who posed as americans with prominent voices to take the online battle in changing hearts and minds. Alledged, but my opinion says it’s a fact. But also operatives came into this country, organized anti HRC rallies, down to giving instruction to the duped americans instruction and money to for instance build a platform on a flatbed truck, large enough for a prison cage, and hire an american to dress as HRC is prison garb. These russian operatives have names, titles, were given quotas, and had feedback on slow days on "not enough disparaging content" towards HRC. Factual, but Misleading. I haven’t finished reading the indictment yet, but there were also Trump Rallies and Trump protests coordinated with unwitting Americans.

Collusion is a rush to judgement, Fact but Mueller, though being steadily attacked and targeted not just by FOX, but R in congress, And this is too say that this kind of attacking is beneath the Dems? Weren’t they pretty much doing the same to Comey at one point, defending their own? Seems kind of instinctive of politians to play partisan politics with things that make their team look bad. Make no mistake, this looks really Bad for the GOP so is this really unexpected? Other MSM seems to have convicted Trump on January 21, 2017. is making steady progress in fleshing out what was already known, that russia attacked our election, and todays release was simply the very detailed expose on how. Fact. And that’s a good thing he is making progress. Let’s wait and see where this goes instead of rushing to judgment. Aren’t Hillary people glad we waited for the Benghazi investigation to wrap up before we simply put her in jail! I am. We also know Trump simply refuses to abide by congress 98 to 2 vote to hold russia to sanctions, and will not say a negative word about Putin, or admit what is detailed by the collective intel agencies not just of our country but others, that russia attacked our elections with a 3 prong approach, Trump calls it a hoax, repeats it, despite this being inarguable. Eh. Trump as President gets to make that call, do I like it, no, but it is his call to make. And, Trump is spinning his story so he calls it a hoax, Mueller will decide if it’s a hoax or not, of that I’m certain.

[gcstomp]

Geez to what end Bernie. Rather you dont cherry pick me. You started off with the pithy "So have we found the collusion part yet?" This is to say, what, we have a hoax? Or until this multi year major event in our lives is settled we cannot comment on the daily info we learn that is all pointing one direction? Look, recently a major paper broke down Trumps lies and misleading statements in 1st year in office, it was about 3000 I recall.

You do not give the benefit of the doubt to someone endlessly. Trump lies, misleads, and doubles back on his own statements constantly. If you are Trumps legal advice you insist everything is untrue until settled after a multi year investigation is concluded and at that time you may have opinion. All others, they should be able to view this mass of piecemeal as it is released day after day, and judge and express outrage. Single bits of nothing, like the pornstar did have settlement check issued to her to clam up, on condition that Trumps own legal team did not void agreement by commenting about it. We can conclude there were lies again on what is a small matter, Clintonesque silliness. Only that is about 1/1,000,000 of the wrongdoing with Trump, and for Bill is what was the major deal, he was a horndog and got caught lying about it.

Again, that is not the huge deal but a reinforcement of multi thousand lies in 1 year that has been vetted and footnoted by reporters, you dont judge Trump as if he is a clean slate, unless you are his lawyer or PR team, you judge him as he has proven himself to be, a serial liar.

[Bernie Brewer]

Geez to what end Bernie. Rather you dont cherry pick me. You started off with the pithy "So have we found the collusion part yet?" This is to say, what, we have a hoax? Or until this multi year major event in our lives is settled we cannot comment on the daily info we learn that is all pointing one direction? Look, recently a major paper broke down Trumps lies and misleading statements in 1st year in office, it was about 3000 I recall.

You do not give the benefit of the doubt to someone endlessly. Trump lies, misleads, and doubles back on his own statements constantly. If you are Trumps legal advice you insist everything is untrue until settled after a multi year investigation is concluded and at that time you may have opinion. All others, they should be able to view this mass of piecemeal as it is released day after day, and judge and express outrage. Single bits of nothing, like the pornstar did have settlement check issued to her to clam up, on condition that Trumps own legal team did not void agreement by commenting about it. We can conclude there were lies again on what is a small matter, Clintonesque silliness. Only that is about 1/1,000,000 of the wrongdoing with Trump, and for Bill is what was the major deal, he was a horndog and got caught lying about it.

Again, that is not the huge deal but a reinforcement of multi thousand lies in 1 year that has been vetted and footnoted by reporters, you dont judge Trump as if he is a clean slate, unless you are his lawyer or PR team, you judge him as he has proven himself to be, a serial liar.

I think what I’m trying to do, probably very unsuccessfully, is to take the hyper-partisan BS nonsense out of it and make my own thoughtful decision as best I can based on the facts as they are presented. Though I have been accused as in the bag for Trump, that couldn’t be further from the truth. I wasn’t a fan of the nonstop Benghazi foolishness either and the foaming at the mouth certainty of this investigation by many is way beyond what the facts say, at least to me at this point.

[chancellor]

I think what I’m trying to do, probably very unsuccessfully, is to take the hyper-partisan BS nonsense out of it and make my own thoughtful decision as best I can based on the facts as they are presented.

Oh, stop I know your bank funded the Russian mind-ray that convinced Hillary she didn't need to campaign in Wisconsin and barely in Michigan. I know it's true. I saw it on the internet somewhere.

[Bernie Brewer]

Oh, stop I know your bank funded the Russian mind-ray that convinced Hillary she didn't need to campaign in Wisconsin and barely in Michigan. I know it's true. I saw it on the internet somewhere.

Um, [scrambling]cleans off desk, shreads documents, deletes files, clears voicemails, and smashes hard drives[/scrambling] what? Did I put all that on the internet, again?

And, what does the parachute emoji mean again? Asking for a friend.

[Hornsby]

Oh, stop I know your bank funded the Russian mind-ray that convinced Hillary she didn't need to campaign in Wisconsin and barely in Michigan. I know it's true. I saw it on the internet somewhere.

That was an error on her part, and the part of her campaign, they were convinced that they had those states in the bag, big mistake. BUT (yeah, that's a big but) I think that it's it's pretty obvious that all of the Russian interference had a lot of effect in such a close election. Rallies, ads, social media postings, all have a swing effect, and it was clear that the Russians wanted HRC to lose.

As to Bernie's post, he answered Glen's fact based opinion, with opinions of his own. Nothing wrong with that, but there was really no refutation of any of Glen's points that I could see. And apparently, clear and concise is in the eye of the beholder. To present a case like Glen's in 5 short paragraphs in no mean feat...

[swampdragon]

A substantial amount of nonsensical tweets these past two days

[baldgriff]

The whole Russia thing has me really frustrated. We sit here in the good ol' US of A - and we are bitching that our election was attacked by a foreign entity. It seems pretty clear that they may have spent time advertising and pushing a candidate that may have been favorable for/to them. So many people up in arms that a foreign country would try and interfere in the governance process of another country. We sit here looking at who to point the finger at - rather than blame ourselves for letting this occur.

Yet, it would seem really insincere to take responsibility for our own complicity in our failure when we play roll the dice with any number of leaders that we push or try to get installed in other countries. How many times have we essentially tried to install a leader in a country and have that backfire on us? How many freedom fighters have we trained only to have that person become our primary enemy? Bin Laden anyone??

Everyone is up in arms about something that has been going on for decades and decades. Am I happy that some other country tried to play with who governs me? NO! That said, I am smart enough or willing enough to admit that this isnt the first time a country dabbled in our business. We have one party that is playing politics by trying to appease the guy that somehow hijacked their party - and we have another party crying and whining that because someone played politics with our system (and they got caught not only being lazy but also with their hand in the cookie jar) that the whole thing should be essentially thrown out. Essentially trying to justify why they lost.

I dont have a solution to fixing this, but I am so tired of watching our government chase it's own tail, point fingers at each other, and generally be more worried about their partisan bullshit rather than actually trying to figure out how to move forward and actually fix those things that need fixing.

Things that need to be fixed:

Medical system
War on Drugs
Immigration
Infrastructure
Electoral Process/Voter ID

are good starts


Seriously, we have bigger fish to fry than this. You know what would be great leadership - and this aint ever going to happen. How about HRC step up and say - I lost because I was lazy. I lost because Russia interfered. I lost because somehow I didnt get enough electoral votes to win. I lost - its over. Lets move on with the things that are most important to our country. We are now over a year into one party justifying how the person that bailed their National Party out of debt LOST. Please for the good of our country - admit you lost - put together a group to work on our election process and lets get back to doing things that put America first.