President Donald Trump

[Redbirds Fan]

I'll retract my accusation. I would be willing to bit that if half the self-identified Republicans do in fact believe Russia is our friend, then there aren't many self-identifying Republicans anymore. I saw something the other day, and if I knew how to post articles, I would, but it said something like only 25% of eligible voters identify as either Dem or GOP anymore. The vast majority now identify as independent/no party or other. Seemed like low numbers as I would have thought maybe 35 to 40% for each party, but it reasonated with me. While I lean GOP, I want nothing to do with the party anymore. I lean fiscal conservative / social moderate.

I'm not too surprised about the article you read. I also feel left out by the parties. Ms. Lucky and I have pretty conservative lives. She works for JP Morgan in trust settlement, and I'm a prosecuting attorney. Neither of us have ever 'registered' as a member of a political party, but we've voted Democratic in national elections.

We believe the social contract requires that we take care of the least of us, even if it is expensive or inconvenient. And even if that means the ones who have more pay more. Our household income is high, but we don't mind paying our share of taxes if it will provide health care, education, food, and job training.

We think too much tax money is wasted on boondoggles...projects designed to keep Congressmen's home district's happy and keep military contractors happy. Senators who talk about our military readiness know beans about our military readiness and what it takes to keep it real. We could slash billions and billions from the military and still make it smarter and stronger.

My personal habits are conservative, but I don't want the government pushing me on that. If I want play boogie woogie at high volumes or to engage in adult activities with other consulting adults, i don't want the government interfering.

I'm a strong believer in states' rights, provided we remember all the things we have historically let the states try to handle which they completely screwed up, and which we then had to take away from them. They don't get any of that back.

I generally like the idea that people should be free to do what they want to do, unless the sole reason they are doing it is to be a dick or to otherwise harm another person. In that case, freedom is limited. You need a better reason to do something to do something than to just be a dick to someone. That's the law.

I may have had a couple of drinks, which is my right unless and until Putin says otherwise.

[Redbirds Fan]

I'll retract my accusation. I would be willing to bit that if half the self-identified Republicans do in fact believe Russia is our friend, then there aren't many self-identifying Republicans anymore. I saw something the other day, and if I knew how to post articles, I would, but it said something like only 25% of eligible voters identify as either Dem or GOP anymore. The vast majority now identify as independent/no party or other. Seemed like low numbers as I would have thought maybe 35 to 40% for each party, but it reasonated with me. While I lean GOP, I want nothing to do with the party anymore. I lean fiscal conservative / social moderate.

I think we could probably live with a country of unaffiliated fiscal conservative / social moderates like you. I feel like you know when and how to keep the lines from getting crossed. Compromises would be possible, progress could be made.

[TranaGreg]

I'll retract my accusation. I would be willing to bit that if half the self-identified Republicans do in fact believe Russia is our friend, then there aren't many self-identifying Republicans anymore. I saw something the other day, and if I knew how to post articles, I would, but it said something like only 25% of eligible voters identify as either Dem or GOP anymore. The vast majority now identify as independent/no party or other. Seemed like low numbers as I would have thought maybe 35 to 40% for each party, but it reasonated with me. While I lean GOP, I want nothing to do with the party anymore. I lean fiscal conservative / social moderate.

With reference to this I heard a very interesting poll that basically says its completely misleading. While there are a lot of people who claim the middle, independent space, a different poll (sorry, I don't have any references, I'll try to find them) showed that when the question was reversed - that is, is there a party of the two that you absolutely do not identify with (ie you couldn't see any way you could vote for them next time around), the numbers returned to almost exactly 49% - 49%.

People may not like what their party is doing, but it's not like there's a huge middle ground that is open to either side.

[Bernie Brewer]

With reference to this I heard a very interesting poll that basically says its completely misleading. While there are a lot of people who claim the middle, independent space, a different poll (sorry, I don't have any references, I'll try to find them) showed that when the question was reversed - that is, is there a party of the two that you absolutely do not identify with (ie you couldn't see any way you could vote for them next time around), the numbers returned to almost exactly 49% - 49%.

People may not like what their party is doing, but it's not like there's a huge middle ground that is open to either side.

I would bet this is pretty accurate. I have an older brother that is very comfortable in saying he is not a democratic but he sure hates Republicans. While I don't feel nearly as strong, we are nearly the opposite of each other. The difference is that I have voted, and will continue to vote, across party lines when the right candidate strikes me and speaks to my convictions.

As for middle ground, it seems to be received this in the last couple presidential elections. As Romney inelegantly pointed out, when he was running against Obama he knew that 47% of the population would never vote for him anyway. I think Hillary made it pretty clear with her deplorable's comment that she knew nearly half the country wouldn't vote for her either. So it seems both presidential candidates play for the middle 5 to 10% of the vote. And that's kind of sad, And why a candidate like Hillary or Trump won't go to states to campaign where they have no chance of winning the electoral votes.

[Bernie Brewer]

I'm not too surprised about the article you read. I also feel left out by the parties. Ms. Lucky and I have pretty conservative lives. She works for JP Morgan in trust settlement, and I'm a prosecuting attorney. Neither of us have ever 'registered' as a member of a political party, but we've voted Democratic in national elections.

We believe the social contract requires that we take care of the least of us, even if it is expensive or inconvenient. And even if that means the ones who have more pay more. Our household income is high, but we don't mind paying our share of taxes if it will provide health care, education, food, and job training.

We think too much tax money is wasted on boondoggles...projects designed to keep Congressmen's home district's happy and keep military contractors happy. Senators who talk about our military readiness know beans about our military readiness and what it takes to keep it real. We could slash billions and billions from the military and still make it smarter and stronger.

My personal habits are conservative, but I don't want the government pushing me on that. If I want play boogie woogie at high volumes or to engage in adult activities with other consulting adults, i don't want the government interfering.

I'm a strong believer in states' rights, provided we remember all the things we have historically let the states try to handle which they completely screwed up, and which we then had to take away from them. They don't get any of that back.

I generally like the idea that people should be free to do what they want to do, unless the sole reason they are doing it is to be a dick or to otherwise harm another person. In that case, freedom is limited. You need a better reason to do something to do something than to just be a dick to someone. That's the law.

I may have had a couple of drinks, which is my right unless and until Putin says otherwise.

I think you've suggested this before, and asserted this premise with almost all members of this Board, but we're not so different you and I. I think we do agree on about 90% of the issues. Maybe even 95%, but it's the other 5 % to 10% that is the bugaboo. And, as a Society in general, and sometimes on this Board, we have developed an inability to even discuss opposing views in a respectful and thoughtful manner. We are all compelled to win, whether it's an argument even worth having or a victory worth claiming. And, quite frankly at times, the arguments are very imuch much ado about nothing.

[Redbirds Fan]

I think you've suggested this before, and asserted this premise with almost all members of this Board, but we're not so different you and I. I think we do agree on about 90% of the issues. Maybe even 95%, but it's the other 5 % to 10% that is the bugaboo. And, as a Society in general, and sometimes on this Board, we have developed an inability to even discuss opposing views in a respectful and thoughtful manner. We are all compelled to win, whether it's an argument even worth having or a victory worth claiming. And, quite frankly at times, the arguments are very imuch much ado about nothing.

I'm sorry if I was just repeating myself, but as I mentioned, I may have had a couple of drinks. And why is this keyboard so loud?

[Bernie Brewer]

I'm sorry if I was just repeating myself, but as I mentioned, I may have had a couple of drinks. And why is this keyboard so loud?

Barkeep, I'll have what he having! Make it a double.

[Hornsby]

I think you've suggested this before, and asserted this premise with almost all members of this Board, but we're not so different you and I. I think we do agree on about 90% of the issues. Maybe even 95%, but it's the other 5 % to 10% that is the bugaboo. And, as a Society in general, and sometimes on this Board, we have developed an inability to even discuss opposing views in a respectful and thoughtful manner. We are all compelled to win, whether it's an argument even worth having or a victory worth claiming. And, quite frankly at times, the arguments are very imuch much ado about nothing.

I think that's the key issue, I've argued for decades that each party can pretty much count on about 40% of the vote, no matter how high or low the turnout is. It's the middle 20% that the catch for politicians. Same with social issues, although, IMO, the GOP is really trying hard to push their people to the left. It's good to see that the craven cowards of politics are starting to wake up and look at health care in a new light. McConnell now says that maybe they have to save Obamacare after all...imagine that! That's all pushback from the people, their 40% who realize that their life was better with regular health care.

Anyway Bernie, I digress, as a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, I offer my hand across the divide to you in peace. Your recent exchanges with Red have shown a side of you that I've not seen before...it's a good look for you.

[Bernie Brewer]

I think that's the key issue, I've argued for decades that each party can pretty much count on about 40% of the vote, no matter how high or low the turnout is. It's the middle 20% that the catch for politicians. Same with social issues, although, IMO, the GOP is really trying hard to push their people to the left. It's good to see that the craven cowards of politics are starting to wake up and look at health care in a new light. McConnell now says that maybe they have to save Obamacare after all...imagine that! That's all pushback from the people, their 40% who realize that their life was better with regular health care.

Anyway Bernie, I digress, as a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, I offer my hand across the divide to you in peace. Your recent exchanges with Red have shown a side of you that I've not seen before...it's a good look for you.

With absolutely no attempt at being snarky, maybe you weren't looking hard enough or maybe too hard to see what you wanted to see. I'm not an extreme anything. And, I don't think I've changed. I just choose not see to the world in absolutes. Look I get how low brow extreme right "Republicans" piss off Democratcs/liberals. But it's a two way street, when Dems/liberals throw the "don't be on the wrong side of history" shit when we do have fundamental disagreements due to religious beliefs or personal life experiences, it is just as maddening. I'd no problem whatsoever voting for a moderate Dem. over voting for a Trump type "Republican" any day. I just can't see many anymore... on either side of the aisle. If the hand is still extended, consider it shaken.

[Hornsby]

With absolutely no attempt at being snarky, maybe you weren't looking hard enough or maybe too hard to see what you wanted to see. I'm not an extreme anything. And, I don't think I've changed. I just choose not see to the world in absolutes. Look I get how low brow extreme right "Republicans" piss off Democratcs/liberals. But it's a two way street, when Dems/liberals throw the "don't be on the wrong side of history" shit when we do have fundamental disagreements due to religious beliefs or personal life experiences, it is just as maddening. I'd no problem whatsoever voting for a moderate Dem. over voting for a Trump type "Republican" any day. I just can't see many anymore... on either side of the aisle. If the hand is still extended, consider it shaken.

Done deal...

Just so you know though, I'm sure we'll still disagree a lot.

[Bernie Brewer]

Done deal...

Just so you know though, I'm sure we'll still disagree a lot.

I suspect that's true. But... maybe we look for some common ground.

[Redbirds Fan]

Done deal...

Just so you know though, I'm sure we'll still disagree a lot.

Bernie and I have been trying to figure out the world for a few years. I can vouch for him as a stand-up guy.

[Bernie Brewer]

Bernie and I have been trying to figure out the world for a few years. I can vouch for him as a stand-up guy.

Well, that's my honor, your Honor. And, sadly, we're no closer to figuring it out. But then again, in any way, we're just passing through anyway.

[Hornsby]

Bernie and I have been trying to figure out the world for a few years. I can vouch for him as a stand-up guy.

Well Hell, might as well add another to the club...I'm 62 and not getting too far myself in figuring things out. But damn it, I'll keep trying!

[Judge Jude]

well, I like to read constructive conversation!


the lack of official party ID among so many I do find amusing. I have, in Presidential elections, voted for 4 Ds, 2 Is, and 4 Rs (I listed them alphabetically). I have never voted for anyone twice.

I wish I had a link, but I once read an interesting survey that estimated the actual "independent" vote, particularly for President, is about 6 percent. that is, people who have no idea which party candidate they would choose in the next election.

now, there is nothing automatically virtuous about independents. some omniscient being could determine that the wisest voter always or almost always votes for one particular party. I can buy that. my only modest gripe is that if someone has voted for the same party in Presidential elections for the last 20 years, I have a hard time seeing them as "independent."

Granted that there may be a few who really do consider both sides, but in the end, this one party has won the day with them each time - but maybe not next time. but that group sure as hell ain't 40 percent.

lastly, I think Facebook, Fox, and MSNBC - plus the demise of journalism - have created a perfect storm of increasing ignorance. I'll be damned if I know how to change that course, but I ain't never been on Facebook (yet; I miss out on family stuff and will join at some point) and I am still plugging away after 35 years, like one of those post-WW II Japanese soldiers in the jungle. The fight is still worth it.

I think you guys can grow the spirit I see here today - even though it's not easy. maybe one way is noting where a typical left/right debate topic has you not as much on the "obvious side" for you as others might think. that can build camaraderie and understanding.