President Donald Trump

[GwynnInTheHall]

Jesus Christ, the election is over and done with, let the historians deal with it, and they will. Trump was elected by everyone who voted for him, every state that he carried, nothing more, nothing less is important. Focus on the here and now, what we can do about the child inhabiting the Oval Office. And changing the damn country for the better, one again. Make America Great Again, my ass, it's more like Make America Pay again.

I try, but when other harken back to look for blame and point fingers in every direction but one I have to respond.

[Sour Masher]

Yyes, I'll support anyone who runs against Clinton should she try to run for any office, that is if I can legally vote against her. ...You can hold you nose and vote for her if you'd like (and you have) But I have more integrity than that.

First, you have nothing to worry about in terms of HRC ever running for POTUS again, and probably any elected position. Second, it is astounding to me that you believe it is a point of pride and a mark of your integrity to support literally anyone, as in the current mockery of a POTUS, and maybe someone even worse in the future, if that is possible, as long as that person is not HRC. You put forth this notion prior to the election, and since, and it continues to blow my mind to think someone who thinks and believes in what you do would put hate for HRC and the DNC above your concerns for the people you care about that you knew would be greatly hurt by the election of her opponent. And I am aware of the argument that by letting it get worse, we can eventually make it better by finally forcing the corrupt power system to acknowledge they cannot ignore the will of the people in their attempts to be king makers. But I also heard that argument from many of my friends in the past, including in 2000, and it only amounted to the election of Dubya, which was a disaster for this country. Nothing good came of it, and I don't believe any or enough good will come from Trump's election to offset the tremendous harm he will do.

You have put forth beliefs consistent with utilitarianism, and have admitted as much. How can you believe that Trump's election over HRC, rather than the reverse, represents the greatest good for the greatest number of people? Either you think that it did, or your lack of support for HRC in the general election is inconsistent with your utilitarian ideology.

I totally get the frustration with the system and the anger over the perception that DNC tried to subvert the will of voters by handpicking a candidate. I disagree about the extent to which they engaged in that activity and also to the extent to which it had an impact on who was the DNC nominee, but it is a vital and serious issue--no argument there. And HRC was a flawed candidate--no argument there.

But the myopia of focusing on that issue to the exclusion of all other factors, namely the manipulation by a foreign power to influence our democracy in more overt and profound ways than the DNC, leading to the election of a man that by any reasonable measure is far, far worse than HRC for our country and especially those people that I know you care most about--the down trodden, the voice-less, the marginalized, and the discriminated against--is incomprehensible to me. As is your continued labeling of anyone who does not agree that supporting HRC vs Trump, even and especially those who supported Bernie over HRC in the primaries, as a turncoat and HRC cheerleader lacking all integrity and blind to the serious issues with the system and the DNC. None of that is true. As repeatedly stated by those who fit that description, they believed the greatest good for the greatest number of people was a HRC victory over Donald Trump. I would love to hear how you see the reverse as being true.

[GwynnInTheHall]

First, you have nothing to worry about in terms of HRC ever running for POTUS again, and probably any elected position. Second, it is astounding to me that you believe it is a point of pride and a mark of your integrity to support literally anyone, as in the current mockery of a POTUS, and maybe someone even worse in the future, if that is possible, as long as that person is not HRC. You put forth this notion prior to the election, and since, and it continues to blow my mind to think someone who thinks and believes in what you do would put hate for HRC and the DNC above your concerns for the people you care about that you knew would be greatly hurt by the election of her opponent.

I totally get the frustration with the system and the anger over the perception that DNC tried to subvert the will of voters by handpicking a candidate. I disagree about the extent to which they engaged in that activity and also to the extent to which it had an impact on who was the DNC nomination, but it is a vital and serious issue--no argument there. And HRC was a flawed candidate--no argument there.

But the myopia of focusing on that issue to the exclusion of all other factors, namely the manipulation by a foreign power to influence our democracy in more overt and profound ways than the DNC, leading to the election of a man that by any reasonable measure is far, far worse than HRC for our country and especially those people that I know you care most about--the down trodden, the voice-less, the marginalized, and the discriminated against--is incomprehensible to me. As is your continued labeling of anyone who does not agree that supporting HRC vs Trump, even for those who supported Bernie over HRC in the primaries, is tantamount to someone being a HRC cheerleader lacking all integrity and blind to the serious issues with the system and the DNC.

If you or anyone in here proved to be a liar or a cheat or unethical, I'd treat you the same. I believe what's wrong with the world is people who are not held accountable and to a lesser extent, those who enable them.

HRC will have my disdain until she comes clean and apologizes for her transgressions or is convicted of something related to them. I want my pound of flesh.

Again, you forget what kind of person I am. I considered allowing my daughter to go to jail to hold her accountable for her actions, do you think I'd have lesser expectations on someone I'm not remotely close to?

Feel free to hold me to the same standards I expect from others and give me the same shit I give them. I promise you, i'll own my mistakes and take whatever comes my way regarding them.

I know how horrible the Donald is, nothing about it or him is lost on me, but this is what you get when you support a person and a system that's frankly-f*cked.

Were there many mitigating factors in election results? Yes and honestly I fully expected HRC to win, but was not surprised when she didn't. As for her supporters? I expect more out of my fellow progressives. I expect them to put what's right over what will win. I expect them to be outraged at what the DNC did and how the system is constructed. Outraged enough to demand change.... My opinion has been met with the same bullshit deflection and denigration we railed against when hearing it from the Right regarding our concerns with their policies/candidates over the years. I've been called naive as though not knowing you're getting screwed and complaining once you find out is somehow my fault and makes the fact I'm getting screwed OK.

Until I get my Mea Culpa from HRC and/or those supporting her start demanding changing the system that nominated her (and I mean denouncing loud and long) I'll beat this horse until there's nothing but blood and bone dust.

I appreciate that you acknowledged my concerns and can respect that we differ on the extent of their impact on the nomination and your obvious empathy towards those who have been the direct target of Trump, but I see things differently--You punish those who didn't demand for the right thing to be done and maybe in the future, they'll do differently.

As Obama said--We get the politicians we deserve--We may not have wanted Trump, but we deserved him.

[Sour Masher]

GITH, I edited my post while you responded to add some more about my perception of inconsistency in your stance with your utilitarian beliefs. I would be grateful if you'd look over my edited post and respond to that issue. It might help me and others understand your position that it was wrong for folks to support HRC vs Trump in the general.

[swampdragon]

and more

Trump Team Knew Flynn Was Under Investigation Before He Came to White House

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/u...T.nav=top-news

[GwynnInTheHall]

First and foremost, I'm not purely utilitarian, though it is the guiding influence. You state I support Trump, I do not. I acknowledge him as a punishment for the right thing being ignored, that isn't support.

As to my edict, I'd vote anyone over HRC, I can see how you'd take that to include Trump. For me she is and will remain a symbol of what's wrong with the system. I believe the system, as is, is more dangerous than Trump. he can be contained, but the system cannot. You see even in this forum people saying 'deal with it" well. not a chance and if it takes a disaster like Trump to force us to change our ways, so be it.

We will either learn our lessons or not and if we do not, we deserve to live in shit.

Eventually, people will get tired of it and yes, it may hurt some in the short term, but I believe that in the long run, it will be better.

[Sour Masher]

First and foremost, I'm not purely utilitarian, though it is the guiding influence. You state I support Trump, I do not. I acknowledge him as a punishment for the right thing being ignored, that isn't support.

As to my edict, I'd vote anyone over HRC, I can see how you'd take that to include Trump. For me she is and will remain a symbol of what's wrong with the system. I believe the system, as is, is more dangerous than Trump. he can be contained, but the system cannot. You see even in this forum people saying 'deal with it" well. not a chance and if it takes a disaster like Trump to force us to change our ways, so be it.

We will either learn our lessons or not and if we do not, we deserve to live in shit.

Eventually, people will get tired of it and yes, it may hurt some in the short term, but I believe that in the long run, it will be better.

I do not share your optimism that Trump's election will teach either party any long lasting lessons--at least no lessons that end up leading to greater good than the bad he has and will continue to inflict on the people of this country and beyond. But I thank for your reply, and now believe I understand where you are coming from.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I do not share your optimism that Trump's election will teach either party any long lasting lessons--at least no lessons that end up leading to greater good than the bad he has and will continue to inflict on the people of this country and beyond. But I thank for your reply, and now believe I understand where you are coming from.

Outside of the SCOTUS appointment, which I believe could have been avoided or at the very least, pushed back, had Obama just put Garland in the position, what has Trump done that cannot be undone in 2-4 years?

I mean I know what he's TRYING to do, but what has he actually done? Besides being a dick.

[baldgriff]

You cant blame GITH for holding to his principles! He doesnt believe HRC to be trustworthy and the DNC did tilt the game way in favor of her. Not believing that is just silly.

So far the people being blamed for Trump's win in this thread have been:

Me - because I voted for a third party.
GITH - because he held to his moral highground and didnt vote HRC
All the people who didnt vote - because they should have voted HRC
The "deplorables" - because they voted Trump


The fact that someone is being told that they voted wrong frankly is DEPLORABLE! We all vote for our own reasons and to tell someone their vote is wrong - well....

[Lurker765]

The fact that someone is being told that they voted wrong frankly is DEPLORABLE! We all vote for our own reasons and to tell someone their vote is wrong - well....

Don't blame me. I voted for Ludwig Kaas, not Hitler.

[senorsheep]

The fact that someone is being told that they voted wrong frankly is DEPLORABLE! We all vote for our own reasons and to tell someone their vote is wrong - well....

If you don't want to hear opinions about why your politics are wrong, you might be in the wrong thread. Just sayin'...

[baldgriff]

Im happy to have conversation about various topics and thoughts. Im also open to changing my mind, but telling me that my vote is somehow wrong, because HRC didnt win is just flat out wrong.

Im happy to agree to disagree, and move on.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Don't blame me. I voted for Ludwig Kaas, not Hitler.

Wow, that''s some shit analogy there brother.

So now not voting for Hillary is akin to supporting Hitler--Nice to know.

[senorsheep]

Wow, that''s some shit analogy there brother.

So now not voting for Hillary is akin to supporting Hitler--Nice to know.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I understand some people who dislike HRC can go this far, but I don't believe BG or myself ever have.

Munchies this early?

BTW you still grinding?