President Donald Trump

[Redbirds Fan]

I am curious to hear who you think are KKK members in the room

I don't think the KKK has think tanks. Not enough raw material.

(Source: met numerous Klansmen, including David Duke)

[gcstomp]

I do not think we have KKK in room. I am sure I will need to repeat that often. Soldiering on, Who is the candidate that ran on a flat 10% tax platform, and got killed by cbo that pointed out that even doubling that figure would still leave shortfalls?

We are a society that help each other, not just because it is the right thing to do, but because that is how systems work best. I could look at it from a selfish pov as follows: I am mid 40's, always have done pretty well for myself financially. I have never needed the emergency room, nor the police department, or fire department, or emt. Never been on food stamps, or collected unemployment. I am married to a teacher with a couple of masters degrees who teaches in a challenging environment, where some 85% of students are on the free lunch program. I understand from her that many of the kids simply go without food on weekends, as the program is only via school days. Come to think of it, I have never had the need to call 911, though my grandmother has when she needed assistance from a fall.

Yet I know I have greatly benefited from govt. I benefit from the streets I drive on, I know potholes are fixed, lights maintained, snow plowed. I know my mail is safely delivered to me with no one stealing it and trying to run scams with my private info. Though if that happens, I also know I have legal recourse/protections. I get that we have safe drinking water from the faucet, and clean air despite lots of cars on road, though a leader who turns an eye to crushing epa could within 1 term destroy that trust. I have money in bank, and I know that even if that bank turned belly up tomorrow my funds are still secure. I could name literally dozens of ways that we all benefit.

The deal is we get a terrific deal every day on what we pay relative to what we get. The poorest among us always have the hardest time in every way you could conceive of, yet somehow the market manipulators that profit in the billions, but if caught dont get criminal time penalties always get away.

[nots]

I do not think we have KKK in room. I am sure I will need to repeat that often. Soldiering on, Who is the candidate that ran on a flat 10% tax platform, and got killed by cbo that pointed out that even doubling that figure would still leave shortfalls?

We are a society that help each other, not just because it is the right thing to do, but because that is how systems work best. I could look at it from a selfish pov as follows: I am mid 40's, always have done pretty well for myself financially. I have never needed the emergency room, nor the police department, or fire department, or emt. Never been on food stamps, or collected unemployment. I am married to a teacher with a couple of masters degrees who teaches in a challenging environment, where some 85% of students are on the free lunch program. I understand from her that many of the kids simply go without food on weekends, as the program is only via school days. Come to think of it, I have never had the need to call 911, though my grandmother has when she needed assistance from a fall.

Yet I know I have greatly benefited from govt. I benefit from the streets I drive on, I know potholes are fixed, lights maintained, snow plowed. I know my mail is safely delivered to me with no one stealing it and trying to run scams with my private info. Though if that happens, I also know I have legal recourse/protections. I get that we have safe drinking water from the faucet, and clean air despite lots of cars on road, though a leader who turns an eye to crushing epa could within 1 term destroy that trust. I have money in bank, and I know that even if that bank turned belly up tomorrow my funds are still secure. I could name literally dozens of ways that we all benefit.

The deal is we get a terrific deal every day on what we pay relative to what we get. The poorest among us always have the hardest time in every way you could conceive of, yet somehow the market manipulators that profit in the billions, but if caught dont get criminal time penalties always get away.

You want those things, but you are unwilling to commit to a tax plan that generates enough revenue to pay for those things.

[gcstomp]

Why would you say that Nots? I am not one who has said I oppose taxes, that was the person I was responding to. I object to the budget that Trump is proposing. In fact, I would reverse everything he is doing, so for example reduce military 10% to increase those departments that help us, so instead of the 31% cut to epa, lets have that percent as an increase.

You posted We have spent approx. $20T since 1964 on social problems. In your opinion, how have we done with that investment? and became strangely confrontational and aggressive when i asked about that. I was asking if that includes medicaid and social security for example, as I know the combined cost of free lunch school program over the past 50 years is barely a blip, though it has helped the many of millions of neediest get thru school day fed, and is maybe the cost of 1 stealth bomber.

[nots]

Why would you say that Nots? I am not one who has said I oppose taxes, that was the person I was responding to. I object to the budget that Trump is proposing. In fact, I would reverse everything he is doing, so for example reduce military 10% to increase those departments that help us, so instead of the 31% cut to epa, lets have that percent as an increase.

You posted We have spent approx. $20T since 1964 on social problems. In your opinion, how have we done with that investment? and became strangely confrontational and aggressive when i asked about that. I was asking if that includes medicaid and social security for example, as I know the combined cost of free lunch school program over the past 50 years is barely a blip, though it has helped the many of millions of neediest get thru school day fed, and is maybe the cost of 1 stealth bomber.

As I have posted for years on here, I am opposed to the amount we currently spend on the military, let alone an increase. Irrespective of that, if you taxed everyone who earns above 400k at 100%, you still couldn't balance the budget, let alone pay for any additional programs. My problem is with folks that want to provide for social programs, but won't commit to taxing an amount that makes those programs viable. I am deeply opposed to the continuation of borrowing from
China (and others) to pay for social programs, especially given that those social programs have a 50 year history of uh, rather dubious results.

[cardboardbox]

I do not think we have KKK in room.

you sure had a hard time figuring this out a few weeks ago.

[Redbirds Fan]

As I have posted for years on here, I am opposed to the amount we currently spend on the military, let alone an increase. Irrespective of that, if you taxed everyone who earns above 400k at 100%, you still couldn't balance the budget, let alone pay for any additional programs. My problem is with folks that want to provide for social programs, but won't commit to taxing an amount that makes those programs viable. I am deeply opposed to the continuation of borrowing from
China (and others) to pay for social programs, especially given that those social programs have a 50 year history of uh, rather dubious results.

That would almost exactly balance the budget, although it would be a tough sell. And if you assume that the effective rate was actually 100%, instead of just the nominal rate, we'd have gobs of money, enough money to cure cancer, build a Canada wall, get Stephen Miller laid, and buy Obamaphones for everyone. Maybe even feed some poor people or provide some health care.

[cardboardbox]

That would almost exactly balance the budget, although it would be a tough sell. And if you assume that the effective rate was actually 100%, instead of just the nominal rate, we'd have gobs of money, enough money to cure cancer, build a Canada wall, get Stephen Miller laid, and buy Obamaphones for everyone. Maybe even feed some poor people or provide some health care.

maybe even Lucky could be Lucky again.

[Redbirds Fan]

As I have posted for years on here, I am opposed to the amount we currently spend on the military, let alone an increase. Irrespective of that, if you taxed everyone who earns above 400k at 100%, you still couldn't balance the budget, let alone pay for any additional programs. My problem is with folks that want to provide for social programs, but won't commit to taxing an amount that makes those programs viable. I am deeply opposed to the continuation of borrowing from
China (and others) to pay for social programs, especially given that those social programs have a 50 year history of uh, rather dubious results.

And who are you talking about here? Who are those folks who won't commit to taxing enough to make those programs viable? (Just because some of us don't want an immoral regressive tax plan like a sales tax doesn't mean we're opposed to taxes which will pay for social programs.)

I love my country, especially the things I believe it once stood for, which included compassion for the least of us. I believe that government represents the social compact we have with each other, and that taxes are part of the price we pay to maintain that social compact. I believe in the value of labor, and that people should be paid a living wage. I'm happy to pay much, much more for a television, washing machine or dryer that is made in the United States of quality materials, quality parts, and with quality craftsmanship. I want those goods made in such a way that they can be repaired of thrown away and replaced by a $88 Chinese made model from WalMart. I don't care if I have to save up or do without to get those items. I drive an American truck. I play an American bass guitar. I drink American beer, locally made for the most part. I support local merchants and local craftsmen. I'm not perfect, my wrist watch is a Timex, and I think the damn thing is made in Taiwan. God knows where my Dell computer was made.

My point is that I agree with the people who say we are all in this together, and those are not the ones who scream make America great and Buy American while their family is importing 50 tons of shit from China to sell here. Those are the ones who invest their money here, even if they can make a little more by putting it in Scotland or China or someplace else.

[Redbirds Fan]

maybe even Lucky could be Lucky again.

CBB, you have a PM. Surprise!

[nots]

And who are you talking about here? Who are those folks who won't commit to taxing enough to make those programs viable? (Just because some of us don't want an immoral regressive tax plan like a sales tax doesn't mean we're opposed to taxes which will pay for social programs.)

I love my country, especially the things I believe it once stood for, which included compassion for the least of us. I believe that government represents the social compact we have with each other, and that taxes are part of the price we pay to maintain that social compact. I believe in the value of labor, and that people should be paid a living wage. I'm happy to pay much, much more for a television, washing machine or dryer that is made in the United States of quality materials, quality parts, and with quality craftsmanship. I want those goods made in such a way that they can be repaired of thrown away and replaced by a $88 Chinese made model from WalMart. I don't care if I have to save up or do without to get those items. I drive an American truck. I play an American bass guitar. I drink American beer, locally made for the most part. I support local merchants and local craftsmen. I'm not perfect, my wrist watch is a Timex, and I think the damn thing is made in Taiwan. God knows where my Dell computer was made.

My point is that I agree with the people who say we are all in this together, and those are not the ones who scream make America great and Buy American while their family is importing 50 tons of shit from China to sell here. Those are the ones who invest their money here, even if they can make a little more by putting it in Scotland or China or someplace else.

So countries that have VAT taxes are engaging in immoral taxation?
Here's a list of VAT And GST countries:

http://www.uscib.org/valueadded-taxes-vat-ud-1676/

What rate do you propose for folks in the Top 10% of earners?

[Redbirds Fan]

So countries that have VAT taxes are engaging in immoral taxation?
Here's a list of VAT And GST countries:

http://www.uscib.org/valueadded-taxes-vat-ud-1676/

What rate do you propose for folks in the Top 10% of earners?

First of all, a VAT is very different from a sales tax. They are both taxes upon consumption. But the VAT, as the name suggests, spreads the taxation as the value is added at each stage of production, whereas the sales tax places the entire burden on the end consumer. If you'll look at my post again, you'll notice that I referred to a sales tax as being regressive and immoral. A VAT has issues, but beats a sales tax.

Second, I notice that although you said your "problem" was with people who won't commit to taxes, you wouldn't answer my question as to who you are talking about. Have you been watching Kellyanne, or what?

What rate do I propose? I don't know what the Top 10% are paying now. I know it isn't 39.6%. Trump made $153 million and paid less than 25%. Let's get all the rich folks up to what they are supposed to be paying, and then we can talk about whether it needs to be increased. Will that work for you? Why not let everyone pay at the income tax rate they are supposed to pay? No more "Hey, my software company lost a zillion dollars on paper, so we don't have to pay taxes on the money we actually made."

[nots]

I'm talking to the entire room obviously. We have a lot of advocates for the poor, health care, free college and other social programs, but we haven't had a lot of folks willing to commit to a tax strategy that would actually pay for everything (or even pay for what we are all ready committed to spending). IMO, that's a huge part of the conversation.
Trump paying 24% in 2005 is more than Obama, Buffet, Biden and Sanders paid last year, but less than Clinton (she should consider a new accountant). It's in line with what the uber wealthy have paid but I agree with you that there are many loopholes that need to be closed. However, if the uber wealthy were to pay 39% with no deductions, we still wouldn't have a balanced budget. If you want additional programs or expanded programs, you need to raise the rates, adopt a VAT or GST, or call China and ask to borrow more.
I haven't heard a second of Kelly Conway speaking since the election night, so I don't know what thats about , but I will assume it's some sort of insult directed at me.

[Hornsby]

I'm talking to the entire room obviously. We have a lot of advocates for the poor, health care, free college and other social programs, but we haven't had a lot of folks willing to commit to a tax strategy that would actually pay for everything (or even pay for what we are all ready committed to spending). IMO, that's a huge part of the conversation.
Trump paying 24% in 2005 is more than Obama, Buffet, Biden and Sanders paid last year, but less than Clinton (she should consider a new accountant). It's in line with what the uber wealthy have paid but I agree with you that there are many loopholes that need to be closed. However, if the uber wealthy were to pay 39% with no deductions, we still wouldn't have a balanced budget. If you want additional programs or expanded programs, you need to raise the rates, adopt a VAT or GST, or call China and ask to borrow more.
I haven't heard a second of Kelly Conway speaking since the election night, so I don't know what thats about , but I will assume it's some sort of insult directed at me.

I don't know that you need to raise more tax revenue as much as re-direct it. Do we really need to be the worlds policeman? Do we really need to add 54 billion to an already bloated defense budget? As has been pointed out here repeatedly, the US spends more on defense than roughly the next TEN countries in the world. Russia only spends 53 billion, China 191 billion to come in at #2, it's simply ridiculous. And now Trump want to fund that increase by gutting many, what I would consider to be, essential programs. Cutting Meals on Wheels...it's 3 million a year from the feds...less than a weekend at Mir-A-Lago. FAR less that it costs for Melania Trump to stay in NY rather than come to DC and live with her husband.

And the tax returns are a sham, more magician smoke and mirrors. A smart fellow pointed out that the exact 2 pages of Tax returns that make trump look good, somehow ended up in the hands of a reporter. And the White House somehow KNEW exactly which 2 pages of a tax return, and for what year, so they could release the information before Maddow's program. When they release the rest of his tax returns for the last 20 years and they show the same result, I'll be impressed. But there's a reason he doesn't release the returns...someday we'll find out why.

I'm with red, re-build this country as best you can, buy as local as possible, try to make a difference in ways big and small. I'm not saying that I'm not more than a bit of a hypocrite, I'll buy things at Walmart, I purchase clothing made in foreign countries, some with child labor problems. But I'm working on it...not perfect, but trying to be better.

All of the programs that you cite, free college, free medical, etc, are within our grasp, but it's not going to happen overnight, and it's not going to happen without sacrifice. How bad do we want it remains to be seen.

Abd BTW, it's a long winded way of saying that I'll be happy to pay more in taxes if they're directed to things that I consider as the greater good.

[Redbirds Fan]

I'm talking to the entire room obviously. We have a lot of advocates for the poor, health care, free college and other social programs, but we haven't had a lot of folks willing to commit to a tax strategy that would actually pay for everything (or even pay for what we are all ready committed to spending). IMO, that's a huge part of the conversation.
Trump paying 24% in 2005 is more than Obama, Buffet, Biden and Sanders paid last year, but less than Clinton (she should consider a new accountant). It's in line with what the uber wealthy have paid but I agree with you that there are many loopholes that need to be closed. However, if the uber wealthy were to pay 39% with no deductions, we still wouldn't have a balanced budget. If you want additional programs or expanded programs, you need to raise the rates, adopt a VAT or GST, or call China and ask to borrow more.
I haven't heard a second of Kelly Conway speaking since the election night, so I don't know what thats about , but I will assume it's some sort of insult directed at me.

Not really an insult, more of an observation on how you didn't evade the question so much as just walked right through it like a ninja.

About Obama, Buffet, etc....you won't hear them complaining about how much they have to pay in taxes.

I read today that if Trump would just quit going to Mar-a-Lago, and be content with only two White Houses (DC and NYC), the savings would be enough to fund four of the significant programs his budget proposal cuts: The National Endowment for the Arts, which encourages participation in the arts ($152 million), the US Interagency Council on Homelessness ($4 million), an independent agency coordinating the federal government's efforts to reduce homelessness, the Senior Community Service Employment Program ($434 million), which has helped more than one million people 55 and older find jobs and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars ($11 million), providing scholarships and fellowships in social sciences and humanities.

Mentioning uber-wealthy and the 39% bracket got me to thinking about wealth vs. income. We may have had a thread about that one time. I'd be curious to know what people think about it.