Supreme Court of the United States

[DMT]

I recognize and understand the concern many have, but I didn't see enough evidence to draw a conclusion that he would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. I agree that doing so would be incredibly messy, to put it mildly, and very dangerous for women.

So Trump said he'd only nominate justices who would vote to overturn, he spent how many hours in the white house before his confirmation hearing, he lied under oath, and you grant him this why?

[B-Fly]

So Trump said he'd only nominate justices who would vote to overturn, he spent how many hours in the white house before his confirmation hearing, he lied under oath, and you grant him this why?

Trump is full of it on this. He said in a 2016 presidential debate that he'd put pro-life Justices on the Court, but later said he wouldn't ask prospective nominees their views on Roe v. Wade. I'm quite convinced he doesn't care about abortion one way or the other.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/03/625410441/which-trump-should-be-believed-on-overturning-roe-v-wade

[baldgriff]

Funny, Hillary Clinton was able to withstand much greater scrutiny over a much longer timeframe of her life yet she never reacted this way. And as B-Fly highlighted, it was just his belligerent tone, but the bizarre RW talking points that he naturally fell back to that is deeply concerning.

Not surprisingly, many of his classmates from Yale are speaking out about what a liar he was about his past drinking. Why isn't lying under oath a concern to any Republicans? Talk about an embarrassment. Sorry I grouped you in with them, simply going by your online persona.

Your not sorry - lol wink wink... Its ok. I realize that frequently we are on opposite sides in these discussions. There have been times where you and I have agreed - though it has been a while given the news cycle.

I dont understand why we are comparing this guy to HRC - it makes no sense to me at all. Will I grant he was aggressive at times - sure. As to the drinking thing - I honestly dont care about his drinking in high school or college. I dont know if he passed out, or if it was a problem. He likes beer apparently. I very much would have preferred him saying - I partied in school, drank a lot of beer during that time. I dont know if what he has stated are perjury - he admitted he got drunk during college. He said he didnt black out and does not have any missing memories or time. Only he actually knows that.

I would prefer that we are judging this guy based upon his interpretation of the law and how he has applied it. Seriously are there any of us that didnt do absolutely stupid shit in high school and college? My first drunk was in College at a "Christian College". I dont care if he was fall down drunk before taking his LSAT's.......... If the guy has been a model citizen for the last 30 years - has promoted the fair and equitable treatment of women in the workplace - has no actual assaults or criminal proceedings that have clear and concise corroboration - doesnt appear to have financial issues - and so on and so on...... I would prefer this guy be voted up or down based on how he has adjudicated the law and meted justice, because that is what he is being tasked with.

[DMT]

Your not sorry - lol wink wink... Its ok. I realize that frequently we are on opposite sides in these discussions. There have been times where you and I have agreed - though it has been a while given the news cycle.

I dont understand why we are comparing this guy to HRC - it makes no sense to me at all. Will I grant he was aggressive at times - sure. As to the drinking thing - I honestly dont care about his drinking in high school or college. I dont know if he passed out, or if it was a problem. He likes beer apparently. I very much would have preferred him saying - I partied in school, drank a lot of beer during that time. I dont know if what he has stated are perjury - he admitted he got drunk during college. He said he didnt black out and does not have any missing memories or time. Only he actually knows that.

I would prefer that we are judging this guy based upon his interpretation of the law and how he has applied it. Seriously are there any of us that didnt do absolutely stupid shit in high school and college? My first drunk was in College at a "Christian College". I dont care if he was fall down drunk before taking his LSAT's.......... If the guy has been a model citizen for the last 30 years - has promoted the fair and equitable treatment of women in the workplace - has no actual assaults or criminal proceedings that have clear and concise corroboration - doesnt appear to have financial issues - and so on and so on...... I would prefer this guy be voted up or down based on how he has adjudicated the law and meted justice, because that is what he is being tasked with.

But that's just it. I could care less if he drank a lot in HS and college. However, he was accused of committing a crime while intoxicated. He got up in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee and lied through his teeth about his past drinking behaviors, and other things. If he is so easily willing and able to lie about things that are easily verifiable, how does that lend any credibility to his testimony vis a vis Dr. Ford? It doesn't. That is the point. If he'd acknowledged his past behaviors, his testimony would be more credible. Honestly, how do you excuse his lying?

[DMT]

Trump is full of it on this. He said in a 2016 presidential debate that he'd put pro-life Justices on the Court, but later said he wouldn't ask prospective nominees their views on Roe v. Wade. I'm quite convinced he doesn't care about abortion one way or the other.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/03/62541...ing-roe-v-wade

That's a good point but does it really matter what Trump thinks on the matter? He's not the one hearing cases. Why are his later statements more credible than his earlier ones? Since he's made promises to his RW base constituency, he wants to follow through on that promise. Kavanaugh quite possibly will help him fulfill that promise.

[OaklandA's]

Trump is full of it on this. He said in a 2016 presidential debate that he'd put pro-life Justices on the Court, but later said he wouldn't ask prospective nominees their views on Roe v. Wade. I'm quite convinced he doesn't care about abortion one way or the other.

Trump may not care, but since he is getting his list of candidates from the Federalist Society, he doesn't need to ask a candidate's view on Roe vs Wade. His list has already been filtered of pro-choice candidates.

[Teenwolf]

Your not sorry - lol wink wink... Its ok. I realize that frequently we are on opposite sides in these discussions. There have been times where you and I have agreed - though it has been a while given the news cycle.

I dont understand why we are comparing this guy to HRC - it makes no sense to me at all. Will I grant he was aggressive at times - sure. As to the drinking thing - I honestly dont care about his drinking in high school or college. I dont know if he passed out, or if it was a problem. He likes beer apparently. I very much would have preferred him saying - I partied in school, drank a lot of beer during that time. I dont know if what he has stated are perjury - he admitted he got drunk during college. He said he didnt black out and does not have any missing memories or time. Only he actually knows that.

I would prefer that we are judging this guy based upon his interpretation of the law and how he has applied it. Seriously are there any of us that didnt do absolutely stupid shit in high school and college? My first drunk was in College at a "Christian College". I dont care if he was fall down drunk before taking his LSAT's.......... If the guy has been a model citizen for the last 30 years - has promoted the fair and equitable treatment of women in the workplace - has no actual assaults or criminal proceedings that have clear and concise corroboration - doesnt appear to have financial issues - and so on and so on...... I would prefer this guy be voted up or down based on how he has adjudicated the law and meted justice, because that is what he is being tasked with.

I tried to stay away from this topic, but your support of and dismissal of rape culture is sick and messed up.

My own sexual assault has way less evidence behind it. I dont have witnesses from the scene, and I have very few details that could back up my claim. When you publicly spout off your support of this guy, and say garbage like "what one of us hasn't done similar", you realize that every sexual assault victim that listens to you is immediately filled with a combination of rage, shame, and basically just feeling like this world is a sick and twisted place.... these victims are often depressed, sometimes suicidal late into life, and you would seek to diminish that pain with your political cynicism! Well, you're a sick F***, and the pain you put me and others through when you say this crap is vile and despicable. If you speak to a dozen people about this, you will be unknowingly shaming 3-4 victims. There's a lot more victims out there than most people realize, largely because of the type of cheap rhetoric you've spewed here.

Think before you speak such odious crap!!!

I was going to wait until my damn parents died to come out as a victim, until the #MeToo movement inspired my courage. Damn you doubters, who would believe 1 drunken, lying, angry MAN over multiple accusers. Idiocy.

[baldgriff]

But that's just it. I could care less if he drank a lot in HS and college. However, he was accused of committing a crime while intoxicated. He got up in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee and lied through his teeth about his past drinking behaviors, and other things. If he is so easily willing and able to lie about things that are easily verifiable, how does that lend any credibility to his testimony vis a vis Dr. Ford? It doesn't. That is the point. If he'd acknowledged his past behaviors, his testimony would be more credible. Honestly, how do you excuse his lying?

You say he lied. I believe that he admitted he drank in high school and college - according to him not to the extent that he has any missing time or memories. From a legal perspective I am not certain he perjured himself.

I dont believe that anything much at all will come from this FBI investigation - so we find out he got drunk every weekend from 1985 - 1987. It makes no difference to the career this guy has built - one that apparently is about as clean as it gets. People may not like him - I may not actually like him. Again, if he ever had stated he would try to overturn Roe v Wade - he's done in my book. I really do have concerns regarding his thoughts on Executive Branch power and privilege. I would rather him be judged and a decision made on him based on how he handles the law - the law that would not hear this case, because there isnt enough supporting evidence to hear it (disregarding the statute of limitations and that this occurred when they both were minors).

This is an individual that after 30 years seated on the bench and serving the public in some of the highest positions in the nation - completed at least 6 FBI background checks that came back clean and the only real possible concern is something that happened when he was a minor. Im sorry DMT - the guy deserves to be voted in or out based on his competency as a judge. Something that does not appear to be called into question much, if at all. Not some charge that again we will honestly never know happened or not.

[Teenwolf]

You say he lied. I believe that he admitted he drank in high school and college - according to him not to the extent that he has any missing time or memories. From a legal perspective I am not certain he perjured himself.

I dont believe that anything much at all will come from this FBI investigation - so we find out he got drunk every weekend from 1985 - 1987. It makes no difference to the career this guy has built - one that apparently is about as clean as it gets. People may not like him - I may not actually like him. Again, if he ever had stated he would try to overturn Roe v Wade - he's done in my book. I really do have concerns regarding his thoughts on Executive Branch power and privilege. I would rather him be judged and a decision made on him based on how he handles the law - the law that would not hear this case, because there isnt enough supporting evidence to hear it (disregarding the statute of limitations and that this occurred when they both were minors).

This is an individual that after 30 years seated on the bench and serving the public in some of the highest positions in the nation - completed at least 6 FBI background checks that came back clean and the only real possible concern is something that happened when he was a minor. Im sorry DMT - the guy deserves to be voted in or out based on his competency as a judge. Something that does not appear to be called into question much, if at all. Not some charge that again we will honestly never know happened or not.

Hey, so my sexual assaulter was a teenager when he assaulted me as a 6-7 year old... I guess he shouldn't face punishment given that he was just a minor.

Please take this horribly stupid comment back!!!

[DMT]

You say he lied. I believe that he admitted he drank in high school and college - according to him not to the extent that he has any missing time or memories. From a legal perspective I am not certain he perjured himself.

I dont believe that anything much at all will come from this FBI investigation - so we find out he got drunk every weekend from 1985 - 1987. It makes no difference to the career this guy has built - one that apparently is about as clean as it gets. People may not like him - I may not actually like him. Again, if he ever had stated he would try to overturn Roe v Wade - he's done in my book. I really do have concerns regarding his thoughts on Executive Branch power and privilege. I would rather him be judged and a decision made on him based on how he handles the law - the law that would not hear this case, because there isnt enough supporting evidence to hear it (disregarding the statute of limitations and that this occurred when they both were minors).

This is an individual that after 30 years seated on the bench and serving the public in some of the highest positions in the nation - completed at least 6 FBI background checks that came back clean and the only real possible concern is something that happened when he was a minor. Im sorry DMT - the guy deserves to be voted in or out based on his competency as a judge. Something that does not appear to be called into question much, if at all. Not some charge that again we will honestly never know happened or not.

Maybe this author can make my points more persuasively.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/why-i-wouldnt-confirm-brett-kavanaugh/571936

Kavanaugh’s testimony, whatever one makes of his impassioned claims of innocence on the specific charge, is not credible on the more general issue of his drinking habits. It is, as Kavanaugh suggested at the hearing, absurd for senators to argue with a Supreme Court nominee over his high-school yearbook. Then again, Kavanaugh’s unwillingness to acknowledge the obvious—that his yearbook described a hard-drinking culture that he was a part of and that makes Ford’s account more plausible—made it necessary to do so. Kavanaugh would not concede that the phrase “Beach Week Ralph Club—Biggest Contributor” referred to drinking culture, claiming it was simply a reference to his having a weak stomach. He ascribed implausibly innocent definitions to other terms that appeared in the yearbook. He diminished the casual cruelty he and his friends showed to one girl, Renate Schroeder Dolphin, by describing themselves as “Renate Alumni.” He claimed they intended to show her respect and friendship, but that is not how she reads it three and a half decades later. She told The New York Times, “The insinuation is horrible, hurtful and simply untrue. I pray their daughters are never treated this way.” She is not a fool. His repeated suggestion at the hearing that he had never been so drunk as to have any possibility of memory loss flies in the face of the memories of a number of classmates from college.

My point is not that his confirmation in any sense turns on how much Kavanaugh drank or whether he and his friends made misogynistic jokes as teenagers. But his testimony doesn’t have the ring of truth either. And lack of candor in a witness in one area raises questions about the integrity of that witness’s testimony in other areas.

[DMT]

Charlie Sykes, another conservative, has said he should not be confirmed.

[baldgriff]

I tried to stay away from this topic, but your support of and dismissal of rape culture is sick and messed up.

My own sexual assault has way less evidence behind it. I dont have witnesses from the scene, and I have very few details that could back up my claim. When you publicly spout off your support of this guy, and say garbage like "what one of us hasn't done similar", you realize that every sexual assault victim that listens to you is immediately filled with a combination of rage, shame, and basically just feeling like this world is a sick and twisted place.... these victims are often depressed, sometimes suicidal late into life, and you would seek to diminish that pain with your political cynicism! Well, you're a sick F***, and the pain you put me and others through when you say this crap is vile and despicable. If you speak to a dozen people about this, you will be unknowingly shaming 3-4 victims. There's a lot more victims out there than most people realize, largely because of the type of cheap rhetoric you've spewed here.

Think before you speak such odious crap!!!

I was going to wait until my damn parents died to come out as a victim, until the #MeToo movement inspired my courage. Damn you doubters, who would believe 1 drunken, lying, angry MAN over multiple accusers. Idiocy.

Just so we are clear - a woman very close to me was raped in high school and got pregnant resulting in an abortion. Another woman close to me was assaulted by the next door neighbors father. One of my close female high school friends was also assaulted but did not go to the police. I have seen the impact of this and seen how it has affected all of them in VERY different ways. I am very clear that it happens and FUCK YOU for accusing me of being dismissive of "rape culture".

The gal who was raped flat out told me that she doesnt believe the allegations. Many of my long time female friends also do not believe her - and have shared some of their horrors. So NOT all victims are immediately filled with the combination that you state. Many are not filled with it because they dont believe her. What are they filled with???

Honestly, many of them are pissed off because this case will likely deter women from coming forward - because the person being assaulted is often not listened to and they often feel like they are being the defendant.

Now when women that I have known my entire life tell me that they dont believe her - I can use that information into account when I make a fucking judgement on whether this is a crock of shit, the real McCoy or somewhere in between. For the record - I dont know what happened (and I believe I have said that before)

So before telling me I am spewing odious crap or that I am a sick F*** (and for the record F*** is still FUCK so just FUCKING say it) please understand that you have essentially called many women close to me that have been assaulted sick Fucks also. I dont take assault lightly! Rapists should be castrated, shot or both. With that said - we do not have nearly enough information regarding her claim to state without a reasonable doubt that this actually occurred.

I live in a world where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. You may not like that! I live in a world where the burden of proof is on the accuser. You may not like that either.

What this "job interview" has done has placed an individual in the unreasonable position to try and prove a claim against him didnt happen. This has been a trial - maybe not a trial in a court of law, but a trial none the less. There has been no due process and whether you like it or not TW - there are plenty of women that have been assaulted that flat out dont believe her and find her less than credible.

What this "job interview" has also done is shown how we as the public are quick to hang people based upon the allegation - rather than verifiable and corroborative information. We have allowed this "job interview" become some kind of referendum. If you think Kavanaugh should not be voted in - well then you are a morally upstanding individual worthy of all praise and glory that is bestowed on those who understand the plight of the sexual assault victim. If you think Kavanaugh should be voted in - well then you are some kind of sick FUCK that speaks vile and despicable and odious crap. You should be condemned to the 8th level of Hell or further down if more levels are available.


I respect the right of the accused to have the presumption of innocence before being hung and then tried for something he may not be able to prove didnt happen. Its how the law works in this country. So when I make my decision on Kavanaugh, I do it based on his policy stances. I honestly dont know if I would say yeah or nay. However, if I had to vote, I would be doing it based on the merits of the guys 30 year record and his policy positions and whether I agree with them. I cant say I would include the allegations, because there hasnt been a burden of proof met related to the claim. Now that may change if there is some FBI bombshell. However, it doesnt make me a sick FUCK for taking into consideration all of the sides of this thing.

[baldgriff]

Charlie Sykes, another conservative, has said he should not be confirmed.

I dont have any issue with him not being confirmed. My issue has been the way this circus has been handled and if it wasnt for pure political reasons he likely would have been confirmed a week ago.

[Teenwolf]

Dude, I sent a PM, thought I was fairly respectful within it... why the public meltdown?

I guess I just think your assessment of the evidence is dumb, and we'll leave it without moral or ethical judgment. If you think countless proven lies dont matter in a Supreme Court appointment, that's just your super low/non-existant bar.

Stepping back away for now. Highly recommend you do the same.

[DMT]

I dont have any issue with him not being confirmed. My issue has been the way this circus has been handled and if it wasnt for pure political reasons he likely would have been confirmed a week ago.

So the way this was handled excuses his repeated lies under oath?