Supreme Court of the United States

[senorsheep]

the whole case seems odd to me.

the cakemaker will sell any cake to anyone, yes even if you are gay. iirc, he'll even sell you the ingredients to decorate the cake the way you prefer. so what, exactly, is the deprivation here?

I am astounded that no one on the right has found a very liberal cakemaker and demanded that he/she decorate a cake with a topping of "TRUMP RULEZ!" or even "MEXICANS ARE RAPISTS" or God forbid, even worse

would that cakemaker have to do that decoration? if not, why not?

Yet another case of hardcore activists taking underhanded political shortcuts to achieve a short-term goal, with seemingly no recognition of how this can and will be used against them in the future. Are you advancing or hurting the cause of gay rights by establishing that citizens can use the force of government to bend artists to their will and bring them to their knees? Dumb beyond belief.

[senorsheep]

the whole case seems odd to me.

the cakemaker will sell any cake to anyone, yes even if you are gay. iirc, he'll even sell you the ingredients to decorate the cake the way you prefer. so what, exactly, is the deprivation here?

Especially when you consider that, in the same retail center as his bakery, is a larger, more visible bakery owned by a gay baker who I'm sure would be happy to make them whatever they want.

They shopped for a Christian baker to make an example of, and use as a legal precedent, and they landed on Jack Phillips. Shame on them for wrecking this guy's life.

[B-Fly]

An agenda-driven government panel coercing an artist to create art in violation of his conscience is an act of pure political violence. There is no way to do this to a citizen with acknowledgement and respect. This is positively Orwellian. I don't care what your general feelings are about gay rights and religion - in this case, the LGBT activists are the fascist dicks, and the Christian baker is the victim. I'm glad he's fighting back, and I hope he annihilates them in court.

I largely agree, I think. I believe he probably should be able to decline a request that he personally create a specific decoration/message on a cake that explicitly endorses or celebrates something he doesn't believe in (whether a same sex marriage or a gender conversion). I don't believe he should be able to deny a birthday cake or a generic "congratulations" cake to a gay or transgender person. If the friends of someone who just had a sex change operation requested a design right out of his design book with a message saying "Congratulations, Autumn!", would Phillips provide the cake, even if the friends indicated what it was celebrating? That's a tougher case for me. All that said, I'm not a fan of activists trying to create a "gotcha" fact pattern with this guy.

To my other example about how far this could go, however, I definitely believe a state can compel an innkeeper/hotelier to rent a room with a single king-sized bed to a same-sex couple, no matter how deeply his religious opposition to same-sex marriage and/or copulation.

[Judge Jude]

Yet another case of hardcore activists taking underhanded political shortcuts to achieve a short-term goal, with seemingly no recognition of how this can and will be used against them in the future. Are you advancing or hurting the cause of gay rights by establishing that citizens can use the force of government to bend artists to their will and bring them to their knees? Dumb beyond belief.

especially if anyone answers that one person is a member of a "protected class" and the other is not.
political suicide.

[senorsheep]

To my other example about how far this could go, however, I definitely believe a state can compel an innkeeper/hotelier to rent a room with a single king-sized bed to a same-sex couple, no matter how deeply his religious opposition to same-sex marriage and/or copulation.

Sure. There's no competing concern about free artistic expression in such a case.

[Judge Jude]

I largely agree, I think. I believe he probably should be able to decline a request that he personally create a specific decoration/message on a cake that explicitly endorses or celebrates something he doesn't believe in (whether a same sex marriage or a gender conversion). I don't believe he should be able to deny a birthday cake or a generic "congratulations" cake to a gay or transgender person. If the friends of someone who just had a sex change operation requested a design right out of his design book with a message saying "Congratulations, Autumn!", would Phillips provide the cake, even if the friends indicated what it was celebrating? That's a tougher case for me. All that said, I'm not a fan of activists trying to create a "gotcha" fact pattern with this guy.

To my other example about how far this could go, however, I definitely believe a state can compel an innkeeper/hotelier to rent a room with a single king-sized bed to a same-sex couple, no matter how deeply his religious opposition to same-sex marriage and/or copulation.

agree in full as well - which goes to show how ridiculous and vicious the cakemaker case is.

it's not enough to sell you the cake and the ingredients - you have to BOW TO MY RULE!

(but I won't bow to yours, because reasons)

and credit to B-Fly for not falling for "mob rule"

[DMT]

I agree that the gay activists are completely wrong in this case. Hopefully another case will arise which will allow SCOTUS a chance to disallow outright discrimination while not infringing on personal liberty, as this example blatantly does.

[heyelander]

and credit to B-Fly for not falling for "mob rule"

patronize much?

[DMT]

patronize much?

He's just celebrating his "Independence".

[mjl]

Apologies if this has been covered upthread; I haven't looked at this in a while.

IMHO where all this stupid shit breaks down is that we have civil rights and antidiscrimination legislation that has this huge loophole of "but not if you really really want to discriminate, and if there's a religion that in some interpretation agrees with you." Either you can or you can't, and it's not clear why religion is a good reason but Nazism isn't. I bet there's some white supremacists out there who believe their shit a lot stronger than some of the Christians who are denying people medical care and still aren't allowed to do what they want.

Related, I know there's the common free-market response of "if this baker is being an asshole to some group, that group will just go to someone else", but the reason we have civil rights laws is that sometimes there's a pretty large contingent that doesn't like that group, and we've decided as a country that that group still needs protection. If there's nobody in your town or county or state who wants to give you a cake or a marriage license or an abortion, we've decided that that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get one.

I'm all in favor of making the necessary arrangements to cater to the needs of people with unusual requirements, but when that impacts other people it's kind of on you to figure out a way to deal with it or remove yourself from the situation, whether it's making a cake for people with different beliefs or not living in the most densely populated area in the country where black people might stand in your doorway if you're afraid of strangers (story, the person who made the call later claimed xenophobia).

[Judge Jude]

understood.

if someone enters a bake shop in, say NYC or SF, and the cake baker is progressive but the customer is a right-winger.....

what decoration does the baker have to put on the cake, as opposed to just selling the customer the cake and whatever decorative toppings they would like?

until that question is answered, this is a pointless exercise.

I am of the group that say "they have to sell the cake, and even the ingredients - but not decorate it themselves."

I understand a contrary argument - but only if it is consistent.

[B-Fly]

At the end of the day, Kavanaugh probably gets confirmed regardless, but it just looks horrible for the GOP to first support the withholding of records relating to his time in the Bush White House and now to attempt to push the hearings through the day after last night's decision by a representative from the Bush White House library to release 42,000 pages of records that no one is being given time to actually read. Look, if he's going to be approved on a party-line vote, that's a clear example of "elections have consequences", but at least allow a week for the papers to be read and discussed.

[onejayhawk]

Posted elsewhere but relevant here, former Senator Jon Kyl will replace John McCain for the next two years.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-mccain-senate-replacement-20180904-story.html#

It is probably fair to assume that Kyl will not rock this particular boat.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/jon-kyl-brett-kavanaugh-nominee-senate/2018/07/11/id/871163/

J

[DMT]

Look, if he's going to be approved on a party-line vote, that's a clear example of "elections have consequences", but at least allow a week for the papers to be read and discussed.

Except when Democrats win. Stolen seat period.

[onejayhawk]

Except when Democrats win. Stolen seat period.

You're late on this one. The stolen seat, if you choose to view it that way, was Gorsuch to replace Scalia. Kennedy was conservative, excepting LGBT issues. Kavanaugh is more of the same

J