2K24: Minnesota Twins

[chancellor]

Sano's response - at least in public - is impressive. He's the anti-Matt Harvey.

[Hornsby]

Sano's response - at least in public - is impressive. He's the anti-Matt Harvey.

He's a good kid, always has been...he's always been coddled and protected. Now, he's got to face the light and admit that his way has failed...rebuild himself physically and mentally.

[Sour Masher]

He's a good kid, always has been...he's always been coddled and protected. Now, he's got to face the light and admit that his way has failed...rebuild himself physically and mentally.

Level of good depends on how much of that bathroom assault incident you believe.

[Hornsby]

Level of good depends on how much of that bathroom assault incident you believe.

I dunno, you've got some evidence that hasn't been seen? "Cuz MLB seems to be satisfied with what they've seen...

[Sour Masher]

I dunno, you've got some evidence that hasn't been seen? "Cuz MLB seems to be satisfied with what they've seen...

That is a disingenuous question that also shows more faith in the uniformity of legal guilt and actual guilt then I'd expect from you. But I'll answer the question anyway.

No, I don't have evidence no one else has. Just the girl's account of things. It was a he said she said thing. There was never any evidence beyond that, which is why he didn't get suspended. And, of course, he should not have been suspended without sufficient evidence. But that doesn't mean nothing happened. It doesn't mean something did happen either. But since the allegation was made, one's opinion of Sano depends on one's opinion on the veracity of his accuser. I don't know enough about her to know how truthful she is, or what motives she'd have to lie. I don't know enough to believe or disbelieve her.

Clearly, for you baseball finding insufficient evidence to suspend him gives you a high level of confidence that he did nothing wrong enough to not be considered "a good kid." He may very well be. I'm not arguing he isn't a good person. I only suggested that one's opinion of him depends on one's opinion of his accuser, and what she said he did. Either he isn't all that good, or she is a liar.

[Hornsby]

That is a disingenuous question that also shows more faith in the uniformity of legal guilt and actual guilt then I'd expect from you. But I'll answer the question anyway.

No, I don't have evidence no one else has. Just the girl's account of things. It was a he said she said thing. There was never any evidence beyond that, which is why he didn't get suspended. And, of course, he should not have been suspended without sufficient evidence. But that doesn't mean nothing happened. It doesn't mean something did happen either. But since the allegation was made, one's opinion of Sano depends on one's opinion on the veracity of his accuser. I don't know enough about her to know how truthful she is, or what motives she'd have to lie. I don't know enough to believe or disbelieve her.

Clearly, for you baseball finding insufficient evidence to suspend him gives you a high level of confidence that he did nothing wrong enough to not be considered "a good kid." He may very well be. I'm not arguing he isn't a god person. I only said that one's opinion of him depends on one's opinion of his accuser.

Clearly for me, the fat that there was no evidentiary finding is good enough. The rest amounts to nothing more than an allegation that one person did/said something that they may or may not have. But the fact that is paramount is there was no evidence that anything happened, just as there is no evidence that nothing happened.

It's a classic "she said, he said" with neither side having any upper hand in the equation. So I'll turn the tables on you...why bring it up again if it's an unprovable issue?

I have no opinion of the accuser, don't know her, have no idea why she would bring something like this up. I do know that Sano cooperated fully, and was cleared of the allegations. I also have no idea what, if anything at all happened...

[Sour Masher]

Clearly for me, the fat that there was no evidentiary finding is good enough. The rest amounts to nothing more than an allegation that one person did/said something that they may or may not have. But the fact that is paramount is there was no evidence that anything happened, just as there is no evidence that nothing happened.

It's a classic "she said, he said" with neither side having any upper hand in the equation. So I'll turn the tables on you...why bring it up again if it's an unprovable issue?

I have no opinion of the accuser, don't know her, have no idea why she would bring something like this up. I do know that Sano cooperated fully, and was cleared of the allegations. I also have no idea what, if anything at all happened...

I brought it up, because you called him "a good kid" despite that fact that Betsy Bissen made accusations against him that, if believed, would make him not "a good kid." I find it interesting that you say you don't know for certain nothing happened, but that uncertainty doesn't stop you from calling Sano good. For me, the accusations are enough for me to not lead me to confident declarations about Sano's character, one way or the other. Again, I'm not saying he isn't good, but given the accusations have not been disproven, I wouldn't say that he is.

But then again, I don't live in the area, like you do. And I'm not a journalist, like you are (you may have met Sano, or know more about good works he has done than I do). So, it is certainly possible that you have more firsthand insights into Sano that would make you rightly believe him over her. That would be fair. But if your confidence in Sano's character is based solely on baseball's decision not to suspend him, and the level of his cooperation during the investigation, that surprises me. Those facts alone do not give me the confidence to make claims about his character.

Edit: Again, not saying Sano did anything wrong or not, but just because baseball decided there was insufficient evidence to suspend him isn't in and of itself enough, all on its own, for me to be confident in believing he did nothing wrong. Hell, a jury declared OJ innocent, but I know he isn't. Not saying Sano is OJ, but I'm saying holding up a legal decision as ultimate evidence of right or wrong isn't always the best idea.

[Sour Masher]

Switching back to baseball, am I wrong in thinking Sano never put in Jerry Rice level work to stay in shape and get the most out of his talent? At least so far in his young career? You may have been referring to this when you say he now needs to admit he was wrong and submit to a new way of doing things. He is saying the right things now in that regard, which is a good sign. He has tremendous talent, but I'm beginning to fear a Pedro Alvarez career path for him, where the power loses out to contact issues. That and health/conditioning issues stand in the way of him fulfilling his tremendous promise as a baseball player.

[Hornsby]

I brought it up, because you called him "a good kid" despite that fact that Betsy Bissen made accusations against him that, if believed, would make him not "a good kid." I find it interesting that you say you don't know for certain nothing happened, but that uncertainty doesn't stop you from calling Sano good. For me, the accusations are enough for me to not lead me to confident declarations about Sano's character. But then again, I don't live in the area, like you do. And I'm not a journalist, like you are (you may have met Sano, or know more about good works he has done than I do). So, it is certainly possible that you have more firsthand insights into Sano that would make you rightly believe him over her. That would be fair. But if your confidence in Sano's piety is based solely o baseball's decision not to suspend him, that surprises me. That fact alone does not give me the confidence to make claims about his character.

I probably have met Sano, although I have no clear recollection, my days of covering sport exclusively would have been the late 70's and the 80's. So to the extent that I called him a "good kid" is mainly the fact that he took this demotion with a rare degree of equanimity. No complaints, no hysteria, no blame...just that he needed to do better for himself and the organization. So no, my judgement of his character was based on his public statements concerning his play, and his need to do better for the organization.

I look at things with a critical eye, and I don't believe a whole lot on the surface. Betsy Bissen said that she struggled with Sano for roughly 10 minutes. May have happened, but he's a 6'5" 290 pound man...I'm skeptical. I also like to let events play out, and the investigators found nothing to charge Sano with. Does that mean that nothing happened? No. But MLB has a lesser than the law does in regards to discipline...so I'm inclined to think that there may be less to the incident than first thought...

And really, I neither said, nor implied anything about Sano's "piety"...

[Sour Masher]

I probably have met Sano, although I have no clear recollection, my days of covering sport exclusively would have been the late 70's and the 80's. So to the extent that I called him a "good kid" is mainly the fact that he took this demotion with a rare degree of equanimity. No complaints, no hysteria, no blame...just that he needed to do better for himself and the organization. So no, my judgement of his character was based on his public statements concerning his play, and his need to do better for the organization.

I look at things with a critical eye, and I don't believe a whole lot on the surface. Betsy Bissen said that she struggled with Sano for roughly 10 minutes. May have happened, but he's a 6'5" 290 pound man...I'm skeptical. I also like to let events play out, and the investigators found nothing to charge Sano with. Does that mean that nothing happened? No. But MLB has a lesser than the law does in regards to discipline...so I'm inclined to think that there may be less to the incident than first thought...

And really, I neither said, nor implied anything about Sano's "piety"...

Piety was the wrong word. I edited it out. We are disagreeing about nothing, really. You were talking about how he handled his demotion the right way, and I felt compelled to bring up a bigger issue that undercuts the notion he is a good guy. If you'd said he has always been a good team guy, I'd have not brought up the accusation.

Sticking with baseball, yes, I loved how he handled that. But I don't love how he has not yet committed himself to becoming the best he can be. At least, that is my perception of his career to date. Time will now tell if he will turn that around.

And yeah, the size difference is notable in her account. Tellingly, I believe she says she fought as hard as she could, not that Sano tried as hard as he could to get her into the bathroom. Clearly, if he'd used his full strength, she'd have ended up in that bathroom. It is likely, in his mind, he was coaxing a reluctant potential sex partner that maybe he thought really "wanted it," not assaulting a victim who just wanted to get away. But she said she screamed and pulled away as hard as she could for 10 minutes (the time frame is probably off too--it may have just felt like 10 minutes to her, but 10 minutes of intense struggle would exhaust even an MMA fighter). My gut tells me that something did happen, but that her perception of it was more violent and filled with bad intentions than his perception of it. Of course, if even the halfway point happened, what he did was assault, and out of line with today's standards of behavior.

[Hornsby]

Piety was the wrong word. I edited it out. We are disagreeing about nothing, really. You were talking about how he handled his demotion the right way, and I felt compelled to bring up a bigger issue that undercuts the notion he is a good guy. If you'd said he has always been a good team guy, I'd have not brought up the accusation.

Sticking with baseball, yes, I loved how he handled that. But I don't love how he has not yet committed himself to becoming the best he can be. At least, that is my perception of his career to date. Time will now tell if he will turn that around.

And yeah, the size difference is notable in her account. Tellingly, I believe she says she fought as hard as she could, not that Sano tried as hard as he could to get her into the bathroom. Clearly, if he'd used his full strength, she'd have ended up in that bathroom. It is likely, in his mind, he was coaxing a reluctant potential sex partner that maybe he thought really "wanted it," not assaulting a victim who just wanted to get away. But she said she screamed and pulled away as hard as she could for 10 minutes (the time frame is probably off too--it may have just felt like 10 minutes to her, but 10 minutes of intense struggle would exhaust even an MMA fighter). My gut tells me that something did happen, but that her perception of it was more violent and filled with bad intentions than his perception of it. Of course, if even the halfway point happened, what he did was assault.

Again, WE can't know, nor do there seem to be any eyewitnesses coorberating either parties stories:

“At the conclusion of the investigation, the Office of the Commissioner found that there was insufficient evidence to support a disciplinary determination against Sano, due to conflicting and inconsistent witness accounts and the absence of contemporaneous substantiation.

Barring the receipt of any new information or evidence, the Office of the Commissioner will not impose discipline on Sano in connection with the alleged incident.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/03/23/twins-miguel-sano-sexual-assault-allegations-no-suspension

Again, insufficient evidence to believe that much, if anything happened. Not calling her a liar, but neither is there any reason to believe that Sano did anything beyond the pale...there is just no "there" there...

[Sour Masher]

There is enough in her account, and of the fact that she shared it was friends and family well before coming forward and before the me too movement may have made some want to seek the spot light, to make me stop short of proclaiming Sano is a good guy. As you say, we just don't know. Since there is uncertainty, and without any firsthand dealings with Sano, I just wouldn't be comfortable declaring he is a good guy.

But if we restrict the statement to he is a good baseball guy, even there, that is disputable. He did come to camp weighing about two Billy Hamiltons. He may always say the right thing, and he may be perfectly affable as a teammate. But if I'm part of his team, I'm also frustrated he doesn't seem to yet be as committed to being the best he can be to help his team win. That could change. He is still young, and with a world of potential.

[The Feral Slasher]

Clearly for me, the fat that there was no evidentiary finding is good enough. .

classic Freudian slip

[Sour Masher]

classic Freudian slip

LOL, I didn't even catch that. Yes, Sano's weight is the point I focused on in my last post about Sano strictly as a baseball player. He handled his demotion saying all the right things, but hopefully he does the right things as well, and puts down the fork sometimes. Although, to be fair for him, his injured leg made it hard for him to train this offseason.

[Hornsby]

There is enough in her account, and of the fact that she shared it was friends and family well before coming forward and before the me too movement may have made some want to seek the spot light, to make me stop short of proclaiming Sano is a good guy. As you say, we just don't know. Since there is uncertainty, and without any firsthand dealings with Sano, I just wouldn't be comfortable declaring he is a good guy.

But if we restrict the statement to he is a good baseball guy, even there, that is disputable. He did come to camp weighing about two Billy Hamiltons. He may always say the right thing, and he may be perfectly affable as a teammate. But if I'm part of his team, I'm also frustrated he doesn't seem to yet be as committed to being the best he can be to help his team win. That could change. He is still young, and with a world of potential.

The guy is simply a MASSIVE human being...is there some fat there on the frame? Sure, but he's also an impressive athlete. He comes from one of the most impoverished parts of the Western Hemisphere, so I can't claim to know much, if anything, as to what its like to grow up in that sort of poverty.