2024 Tout Wars results

[Moonlight J]

Use the tabs at the the bottom to navigate the various results. Some notes:

• These are OBP leagues
• AL & NL dropped both the CI and the MI position labels and created an IF roster spot and a second swing man position that could be either a hitter or a pitcher
• AL & NL reduced the IL slots to just 4 in season (some teams were carrying a quasi-taxi squad in recent years)
• Mixed has a 6 man bench while the mono leagues have a 4

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u_02nYWw8ZgNlEGozVziEtP0lX_Y3q42UPeKQeebkwE/edit#gid=0

[Ken]

Thanks for the commentary Jason during the mixed auction, always entertaining and interesting.

[Sharky]

Jason, can you tell us a bit about the move to 2 SW positions and one IF? What’s the thinking and how materially do you think it affected pricing (compared to standard 5 OF, 1 UT, 1 CI, 1 MI setup)? Thanks!!

[Todd Zola]

Jason, can you tell us a bit about the move to 2 SW positions and one IF? What’s the thinking and how materially do you think it affected pricing (compared to standard 5 OF, 1 UT, 1 CI, 1 MI setup)? Thanks!!

I'm on the board that instituted the rule (on a one-year trial basis). We had previously eliminated OF5 and made the the SW position. We had a couple of requests to make the roster have 10 pitchers since that's the way MLB is trending (teams keeping more pitchers and the best available free agents were mostly middle relievers).

We weren't against just making it 10 pitchers (and eliminating CI and MI and instead having INF), but talked about it and decided to make it another H/P utility (Swingman) spot.

The expectation was for teams to go the standard 14/9 on draft day, then use the SW in season when it made more sense for the roster and available players.

[Sharky]

Thanks Todd! Interesting and helpful context. I would think it opens the door to “gaming the system” (in the way one could do with no IP minimum etc). Could choose to tilt heavily one direction or the other. Will be fascinating to hear how it plays out by season’s end. Please keep us posted!

[rhd]

I played in a league for a few years that had the Swing position .There were 12 teams and usually around 3 teams went w a pitcher for the Swing position on draft day.

[Todd Zola]

Thanks Todd! Interesting and helpful context. I would think it opens the door to “gaming the system” (in the way one could do with no IP minimum etc). Could choose to tilt heavily one direction or the other. Will be fascinating to hear how it plays out by season’s end. Please keep us posted!

Gaming the system implies something underhanded. We instituted these rules (including no IP minimum) with our eyes wide open. I don't see it as gaming the system, but rather playing cleverly within the confines of the rules.

[Moonlight J]

Last year, I reached a point where my offense unsavable, so I dealt away my hitting and ran with 10 pitchers the rest of the season to gain as much as I could in pitching to ensure I stayed above the 60 point threshold. I finished with 62, so I was able to avoid the FAAB penalty that teams below 60 points incur (losing $10 for every point below 60) out of their $1000 FAAB budget

[Ken]

I enjoy TOUT and LABR and review the prices paid every year (and often watch/listen to the drafts) in my own draft prep but I will say that the unique position/stat formats are not my preference. I like to see how experts value certain players and by having different positions or categories it throws that analysis off some. I wish the expert leagues used traditional 5x5 but that's just a personal preference and obviously the people actually in the league may disagree!

[Moonlight J]

LABR is still mostly traditional save the rule where you can't bench players due to poor performance but is otherwise standard 5x5. Mixed Tout is standard save the OBP format.

I'll say that I'm all for experimenting with new rule changes, but am still hoping to get into one where we have decisions (wins+saves+holds) over wins and saves and use IP as another category so we stlll have 5 pitching categories.

[Todd Zola]

We, the Tout Board, (also including Ron Shandler, Peter Kreutzer, Brian Walton and Jeff Erickson) talk about the fine line between relatability and advancing the game a lot. At this point, we agree there are multitudes of ways to learn how <insert industry person here> feels about a player, and everyone understands how auction/draft flow affects specific decisions. That said, we can't be so "out there" that no one cares.

Some of the changes are what we feel are better ways to play

-first to use 5x5
-first to use OBP
-first to expand to 15 mixed
-one league using IP instead of wins and Saves + Holds instead of Saves
-adding a Draft & Hold and Head to Head League
-15 game minimum from last season to qualify at a position
-no minimum IP

Other rules were to increase the enjoyment/experience, not all of these were options until commissioner services (hat tip to OnRoto) could handle the coding

-midweek replacement of injured players
-midweek activation of players coming off the IL or promoted from the minors
-JUST AL and NL: Eliminate OF5 and add SW (Swingman, can be any hitter or any pitcher)
-JUST AL and NL: Eliminate MI and CI and add INF and another SW

OBP definitely changes rankings, as does SOLDS (and IP, a bit).

The rest really haven't altered valuation/rankings. It's more about the in-season experience.

Though, no minimum innings has altered prices, mostly in the AL where Doug Dennis has been using a "no starter" plan (with a second place and two firsts).

[Ken]

Good details there.

I will say, while information from experts is now ubiquitous, the expert drafts have always been more of a "put your money where your mouth is" for me. I've heard numerous pods focused on who a particular person likes, and they may list 15 they like at a position and 15 they don't. But who are they actually drafting for their team? And at what price? I think those are slightly different aspects, or at least a different level of detail.

If I had any recommendation it would be to keep the draft/auction formats as standard/traditional as possible and use the in season management aspects as a way of making it "more fun". Mid week replacements, etc.

Just my 2c.

[Sharky]

Todd, that was great insight. Thanks!

What has been the feedback / general view of the move to IP instead of wins? I’ve been advocating that for our league. And did it change valuations mareriallly?

[Todd Zola]

Todd, that was great insight. Thanks!

What has been the feedback / general view of the move to IP instead of wins? I’ve been advocating that for our league. And did it change valuations mareriallly?

We have had Touts requesting to be moved into the IP/Solds league. In fact, we expanded it to 15 teams this year to accommodate requests. Now that we have two 15 team draft leagues, I was going to compare the pitching in both. The drafts will be posted on a Google Sheet soon so anyone can pull the data and play.

[Todd Zola]

If I had any recommendation it would be to keep the draft/auction formats as standard/traditional as possible and use the in season management aspects as a way of making it "more fun". Mid week replacements, etc.

Just my 2c.

The toothpaste has left the tube, at least with OBP. One SW is here to stay. The second is experimental.