Al mvp

[cool hand]

i cant believe there is no thread here regarding the AL MVP race (such as it is).
this is the place i come to in order to hear the saber-geek argument why a potential triple crown winner might NOT be the MVP. as it is right now, i'm forced to get my fill of the discussion from tweets resonating between buster olney & john paul morosi.

so, best & brightest, let's hear it - what say YOU?

[Moonlight J]

It's Trout

everyone else is playing for 2nd

[onejayhawk]

Trout WILL win. Should he?

J

[dslaw]

Miggy could get the triple crown. Tough to go against a guy with those stats.

[virgonomic]

Trout has slowed down the past couple weeks. I don't think the word "slump" is in Miggy's vocabulary.

This award has to go to Miggy. And I conceded that it would go to Trout until I saw the numbers and heard the triple crown talk today.

[revo]

This will come down to whether their team makes the playoffs. If the Angels make it and the Tigers do not, it'll be Trout. Vice versa, Miggy wins it. If both make it or miss out, it has to boil down to the Triple Crown.

I think Miggy wins it.

[DJBeasties]

If read Dave Cameron's article Trout makes serious sense.

[cool hand]

i read that cameron piece this afternoon. to me, it read like a guy that had made up his mind awhile back that trout was his guy, and set out to find the right stat set to prove it. felt like i was reading a statement from a political party. never mind his ridiculous hypothesis that miggy was being selfish by forcing the tigers to put him at 3rd.

articles like that are likely what prompted this, from ken rosenthal:

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/MLB?vid=cc8b7e0c-f27b-4dea-9607-a690018912f4

in my opinion, most of the trout side is fueled by the fact that they were SO enamored with his incredible months of june/july, when he was CLEARLY the best player in the game, that they'd already awarded the MVP to him in their minds. and now they're not willing to change them.

if you take a look at each player's monthly splits for this season, they tell an interesting story. while much has been said about his late season surge, miggy's consistent production has been remarkable.

[Moonlight J]

Miggy could get the triple crown. Tough to go against a guy with those stats.

4 of the last 10 triple crown winners failed to win the MVP

[Moonlight J]

This will come down to whether their team makes the playoffs. If the Angels make it and the Tigers do not, it'll be Trout. Vice versa, Miggy wins it. If both make it or miss out, it has to boil down to the Triple Crown.

I think Miggy wins it.

(not directed at you) This is 100000% idiotic and a line of thought that MUST stop

It's not a player's fault his teammates aren't as good. There are ways to measure individual player value and how much better or worse a team would be without said player.

It's a player award -- players must hit, field, and run.

Is Cabrera the better hitter? Yes
Is his hitting so much better than Trout that it negates Trout's superiority in fielding and running? Helllllllllllll no it isn't.

This is a no-brainer vote.

I don't care what Trout is doing over the final few weeks because he's been amazing over the course of an entire season. Had his GM not wasted ABs with Abreu & Wells earlier in the season, Angels wouldn't be in the mess they are now. Not Trout's fault

[onejayhawk]

4 of the last 10 triple crown winners failed to win the MVP

Two of those were Ted Williams, and they gave it to a Yankee. One was Hornsby, when Sisler hit .420. Oddly the other is Lou Gehrig with a .363 BA, 49 HR, 165 RBI. They gave it to a C with 2 HR and 76 RBI, just because he was the best player on the pennant winning team. Mickey Cochrane is who Mickey Mantle was named after, and he was pretty good with a glove.

J

[dslaw]

4 of the last 10 triple crown winners failed to win the MVP

This is 100000% idiotic and a line of thought that MUST stop

Since you are pushing Trout I can think you are wrong but you have an argument. It isn't like you are pushing for Jeter or Alex Rios. But this seems like you are saying "in the past people didn't vote for triple crown winners so we don't have to this year" and at the same time saying "in the past people didn't vote for good players on bad teams and this has to stop". I'm sorry some voter hated Ted Williams and didn't even list him on the ballot when Williams won the triple crown 50 years ago but that doesn't mean Williams shouldn't have won nor does it mean Miggy shouldn't win this year.

[revo]

(not directed at you) This is 100000% idiotic and a line of thought that MUST stop

It's not a player's fault his teammates aren't as good. There are ways to measure individual player value and how much better or worse a team would be without said player.

It's a player award -- players must hit, field, and run.

Is Cabrera the better hitter? Yes
Is his hitting so much better than Trout that it negates Trout's superiority in fielding and running? Helllllllllllll no it isn't.

This is a no-brainer vote.

I don't care what Trout is doing over the final few weeks because he's been amazing over the course of an entire season. Had his GM not wasted ABs with Abreu & Wells earlier in the season, Angels wouldn't be in the mess they are now. Not Trout's fault

Unfortunately, this has not been the case throughout baseball history, and will likely never be the case.

Just take a look at the WAR leaders over the last 20 years or so, and see how many of them won the MVP award. In the AL, only 5 of the 20 WAR leaders won the AL MVP (with three of those going to ARod). It's a little more difficult in the NL since Bonds & Pujols have dominated the WAR for most of those 20 years, but still half the time, others won the MVP.

It's the old adage -- we can lose with you, or we can lose without you.

And it's not just relegated to baseball. Why are QBs judged by how many Super Bowls they've won, when there's 52 other players on the team?

This is an old argument, but it will never boil down to who has the best stats. Other factors are, and should, come into play.

[Moonlight J]

This will change as more people like Keith Law are ushered in to the voting pool. Narratives will go by the wayside and people will study the facts. People are working too hard as the Miggy narrative to make it happen. Sporer is the most passionate Tigers fan I know - and he says Trout is the MVP

Just because every sport makes the same mistake does not make it right.

Cabrera is the MVH, not the MVP.

I'd love to see a cross-section of voters who are ignoring Miggy's defense for this award while refusing to overlook Edgar's HOF chances.

It should be a complete player vote and Trout produces runs at the plate AND on the bases while preventing them in the field. Cabrera creates runs at the plate and in the field while preventing them on the basepaths.

[Moonlight J]

Since you are pushing Trout I can think you are wrong but you have an argument. It isn't like you are pushing for Jeter or Alex Rios. But this seems like you are saying "in the past people didn't vote for triple crown winners so we don't have to this year" and at the same time saying "in the past people didn't vote for good players on bad teams and this has to stop". I'm sorry some voter hated Ted Williams and didn't even list him on the ballot when Williams won the triple crown 50 years ago but that doesn't mean Williams shouldn't have won nor does it mean Miggy shouldn't win this year.

I'm tired of seeing mistakes in the past replicated in the present.

I'm just noting that the Triple Crown isn't a guarantee of anything.

RBI's are stats of opportunity. Cabrera is driving in these runs because of who is on base in front of him. Could Trout do the same if he hit behind Pujols rather than in front of him? I believe so

Could Cabrera produce as many runs as Trout has out of the leadoff spot if he hit leadoff all season? Not a chance.

Run production is so much more than just driving in hitters; it's about driving them in and creating them. Trout's wRC+ score is tops in the league; Cabrera is 6th.

If you look at run prevention, pick any defensive metric and it shows Cabrera as a drag on the team. None of the metrics are without flaw, but all of them show him to be horrendous and the eye test backs that up.