Ubaldo - ugh

[RSF]

Nice...condescending much? That's a trait that'll certainly serve you well in life. And just for the record, I follow your argument just fine, I just don't happen to agree wholeheartedly with it.

Given that you misstated my point, it is pretty clear you didn't follow me. Which is fine, as you seem to have made up your mind before you read anything about the velo issue anyway.

[Hornsby]

Given that you misstated my point, it is pretty clear you didn't follow me. Which is fine, as you seem to have made up your mind before you read anything about the velo issue anyway.

You might want to re-read posts 2 and 3 of the thread, where you state the following:

Velocity down last year and this; looking unfortunately like a case where 'normal' sabermetric indicator stats can lead one awry because there is something physically wrong there.

So I followed up with this:

I don't think that there's anything physically wrong...he was hitting 96+ on his fastball the 2nd half of last year. And early reports in ST said that he was still hitting 95+ in spots. My guess is it's just a case of a guy who's lost his mechanics, and lost his control. Instead of hitting the corners in the mid 90's, he's now having to throw it so it gets more of the plate.

So I'm not sure where I "misstated" your post, which was pretty clearly that Ubaldo was struggling because of some injury. And that his troubles were due to a decrease in velocity...I simply disagreed with your assessment. My thoughts being that anyone capable of throwing consistently in the mid 90's for a full year was either no longer injured, or was never injured.

And yes, I'd made up my mind...just as you have.

[Hornsby]

Well, he was more hittable, at least in part, due to a 43 point increase in BABIP. Lots of those batted balls that he got lucky with in 2010 he wasn't so lucky with in 2011.

The amount of pitches he threw in the zone was almost the exact same --- 49.1% to 49.6%.

And, again, while he did show diminished peripherals in 2011, they were slight. His FIP, as noted, was 3.10 in 2010 and 3.67 in 2011. That's the kind of change the numbers would suggest --- a little more than a half run or so.

But where in the zone where those pitches? To me that's the key...was he really just unlucky? Or did he throw pitches fatter than he normally would because he didn't have the control over them that he did in 2010?

Either way, you should probably eat the 5 bucks and see if you can get him back cheaper, with a new contract if you believe in him. I promise you that I won't go higher than 4 bucks...

[RSF]

Like the entire issue of the velocity drop, Hornsby, I have no doubt that you don't understand the issue raised.

On the location issue, the tools are available on the web to research this the way several of us have on the velo point. Look forward to you proving your point though that data; if you don't care enough to look, one has to wonder whether you're here to argue or find answers, don't they?

[Hornsby]

I'm sure you don't see the problem, Hornsby...then again, you also completely missed the issue the rest of us are talking about on velocity so, as I said, these things happen sometimes.

On the location issue, the tools are available on the web to research this the way several of us have on the velo point. Look forward to you proving your point though that data!

So far you've done nothing but act like a snarky little kid, and point to fangraphs as a source for velocity data. Not what that data might actually mean, ELD had to do that. When you can actually bring something to a debate, let us all know, will you?

[Porcello]

I watched all of his starts after the trade and feel comfortable saying his mechanics are a MUCH bigger issue than his velocity. The lack of velocity may be a product of his screwed up mechanics, but in the end he has no feel for anything when he's on the mound and it shows. He's throwing, not pitching.

[BigJonEmpire]

The Indians have stated that one of the things they noticed when they were scouting Ubaldo before the trade was his mechanics were screwy, in particular his stride to the plate. Sometimes he had a long stride and much shorter other times. Ubaldo has stated that he had a groin injury that messed him up, which is probably true. Past scouting reports always stated that Ubaldo had complex mechanics in his motion. Also, in 2010 scouting reports said that while Ubaldo was throwing 95+ his fastball still had wicked movement. In 2011 it was apparently a lot straighter. This isn't my research, I've just read everything I could find on Ubaldo and the difference between 2010 and 2011.

[Porcello]

Threw 4 IP and allowed only one run on 4 hits and a walk to go with 4 Ks. He topped out at 95, which is still a little low for him to top out at, but looks like his arm is gaining strength.

I heard it went back to 90 in the 2nd or 3rd after topping out at 95 early.

[Moonlight J]

I heard it went back to 90 in the 2nd or 3rd after topping out at 95 early.

It was 92-93 in the 3rd

[Porcello]

It was 92-93 in the 3rd

Not according to the radio broadcast.

[Hornsby]

F'ing ******* suddenly gets control and hits Tulo in the elbow deliberately. Fortunately, x-rays are negative.

Concern surrounds Tulowitzki
Troy Tulowitzki, SS, COL
News: Colorado shortstop Troy Tulowitzki left Sunday's Cactus League game against Cleveland after being hit in the left elbow by a fastball from Ubaldo Jimenez. After plunking Tulowitzki on the first pitch of his at-bat, Jimenez advanced toward home plate and gestured at the Rockies star before benches from both sides emptied, but there were no ejections. Tulowitzki was taken to a hospital for precautionary X-rays, which returned negative. The two players verbally sparred earlier this spring when Jimenez -- a former ace with Colorado -- said he felt under-appreciated by the Rockies after he was not awarded a contract extension similar to Tulowitzki's seven-year deal. Tulowitzki responded in defense of the organization.

From: CBS

[Hornsby]

Phew, I was worried that Ubaldo got hurt!

You're still rostering that pig?

[revo]

I just might have to drop this POS after his latest disaster. Ubaldo is just an absolute train wreck out there right now.

20 BBs, 14 Ks. Wow.

he's so bad even Gordon Beckham looked good against him.

[overkill94]

Is he droppable in a 10-team AL-only yet? I spent $18 on this jerkoff but he's absolutely killing me right now and is showing no signs of turning things around.

[Moonlight J]

I have him in LABR and I want to cut him