Larkin Elected to HOF

[heyelander]

fvckin' HOF Voters. :mad:

http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/1/9/2694737/outrage-former-phillies-pitcher-terry-mulholland-receives-zero-hall

In one of the most disgraceful turns of events in the history of American professional sport, former Phillies pitcher Terry Mulholland was denied rightful entry into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, collecting zero votes from the frauds in the Baseball Writers Association of America. This year's sole inductee is Reds shortstop Barry Larkin, who must have bribed a million writers.

Mulholland was the author of one of the greatest moments in Phillies history, a 1990 no-hitter against the San Francisco Giants. He was just a Charlie Hayes error away from a Perfect Game. I bet Hayes feels badly now, knowing that he probably cost his teammate a chance at glory in Cooperstown.

Mulholland was also a member of the superbly adequate 1993 National League Champion Phillies starting rotation, and possessed probably the greatest pick-off move in the history of the Universe. Try stealing on him, Mr. Larkin. What's that? You can't? HA!

[Erik]

LOL. If Mueller and Radke could garner sympathy votes, why couldn't Mulholland?

[Moonlight J]

Meh, they were essentially the same pitcher, with a few minor differences. Morris was the quintessential big game pitcher, winning 4 WS games including the memorable 10 inning shutout in '91. I don't think that Moose won a WS game, or a title...and that makes a difference. Neither should be a shoo-in, and I wouldn't be surprised if neither gets in.

No, it doesn't. Both are team accomplishments, not individual ones. This vote is on the individual

[Moonlight J]

Neither Mussina nor Morris deserve induction. As is repeated ad nauseum around these parts, it ain't the Hall of Pretty Good.

Well, Mussina has a higher WAR than Pedro, Glavine, and Drysdale........

[Pauly]

No love for Curt Schilling in 2013?

[Moonlight J]

What is it good for?


Hang around long enough putting up pretty good numbers and that's what happens.

He did more in 18 than Schilling did in 20 and Glavine did in 22 seasons. I think Schilling is a shoo-in and the establishment will automatically make Glavine a 1st ballot on the 300 wins.

12 seasons of WAR 4.0 or greater isn't just pretty good. He has 7 over 5.0

[Moonlight J]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&players=0

So is Schilling your cutoff line?

Moose has more 4+ years than Pedro but less 5+ years.

It is tough to make an argument that Mussina was not one of the 10 best starting pitchers of the last 20 years. Top 10's belong in, IMO

[Judge Jude]

"Morris was the quintessential big game pitcher, winning 4 WS games including the memorable 10 inning shutout in '91. I don't think that Moose won a WS game, or a title...and that makes a difference."

career postseason stats:

Mussina 7-8, 3.42 ERA in 140 IP, 13 quality starts in 21 tries

Morris 7-4, 3.80 ERA in 92 IP, 7 quality starts in 13 tries

Mussina only got to pitch in 3 WS games, allowing 5 ER in 18 IP
he went 1-1, including allowing 2 ER in 8 IP in Game 5 in 2001, and 1 ER in 7 IP in Game 3 in 2003

you don't want to see the run support numbers, or explosion of the "pitched to the score" myth.
It isn't pretty....

[Hornsby]

No, it doesn't. Both are team accomplishments, not individual ones. This vote is on the individual

You go ahead and tell the voters that they can't use those accomplishments then, see how far you get with that argument. And wins are still individual accomplishments, last time I checked...

[Judge Jude]

"wins are still individual accomplishments, last time I checked..."

not since the 1910s or so.

If a starting pitcher allows 1 run in 8 IP and leaves with a 4-1 lead, and the bullpen blows the lead, are you really going to ding the starting pitcher for his awful relief?

Morris needed to get in before computers could easily refute the now-proven-false "pitched to the score" claims.
It's easy now to chart all the actual data, game by game.

[Hornsby]

"wins are still individual accomplishments, last time I checked..."

not since the 1910s or so.

If a starting pitcher allows 1 run in 8 IP and leaves with a 4-1 lead, and the bullpen blows the lead, are you really going to ding the starting pitcher for his awful relief?

Morris needed to get in before computers could easily refute the now-proven-false "pitched to the score" claims.
It's easy now to chart all the actual data, game by game.

Hmmmm, you'd better tell your paper that they've been publishing incorrect Box scores, because every time I read one, they have a winning and losing pitcher, and their won-lost records...

So are you trying to say that Mussina is at a different level than Morris? Frankly, I don't care, neither one belongs in the hall, IMO, but I'm curious as to what you're trying to get at.

[Long John]

So no Bonds, Clemens, Sosa? As big an a-hole as Bonds & Clemens are, I have a hard time believing they weren't HOF caliber without roids.

As far as Sosa -- do you think the general consensus is he was a roider too? PLus he had that whole corked bat thing. I get the feeling he won't get too much support.

But if that's the case -- then how can Piazza & Biggio get votes? Piazza was never implicated, but there were heavy rumors that he was a user. And Biggio has the whole Bagwell connection (and neither were implicated either, but many think Bags was a user too).

Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are all HOF worthy, but I don't think they'll be elected in by 2017, if ever. Rumors are rumors. Congressional inquiries are an entirely different matter. And despite Bagwell's connection, I don't think Biggio was a juicer by any stretch. Honestly, I think Bagwell wasn't because his career ended so relatively abruptly due to injury - if he had been, he would have healed better and quicker and played a bit longer.

[Judge Jude]

"So are you trying to say that Mussina is at a different level than Morris? Frankly, I don't care, neither one belongs in the hall, IMO, but I'm curious as to what you're trying to get at."

Well, Mussina was the better postseason pitcher overall, but of course Morris' Game 7 was one for the ages. Let's call it even.

The regular season comparisons - Jack is not happy with that previous call....

[Moonlight J]

You go ahead and tell the voters that they can't use those accomplishments then, see how far you get with that argument. And wins are still individual accomplishments, last time I checked...

They're voting for Jack Morris to prove a point to the SaberNerds, I get that.

As far as wins being an individual accomplishment, that's like saying quarterback completions are an individual accomplishment.

Let's use Game Score from Bill James

Start with 50 points.
Add 1 point for each out recorded, so 3 points for every complete inning pitched.
Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th.
Add 1 point for each strikeout.
Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed.
Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed.
Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed.
Subtract 1 point for each walk.

Since 1991, 623 times, a pitcher has had a Game Score of at least 70 and taken a loss.

In that same time frame, 1924 pitchers had a Game Score of less than 40 and took a win.

[DMT]

A friend of mine subscribes to Joe Sheehan's newsletter and forwarded his rant on the BBWAA, good stuff. Unfortunately it's subscription-based but if you get a chance to read it...he basically says the voting process has become all about the voters trying to validate their own erroneous story lines than honoring the best players.