National League MVP

[pjs24]

So you're saying the D-Backs would be in 1st sans Upton? Not a chance.

You might disagree with one side but it is a legitimate argument. It's not to say players on non-playoff teams have no value, but that they don't have the most value because there is much less 'value' to be accounted for on non-playoff teams.

Btw, I'm not a hard-liner for either side of this argument. If Kemp wins the Triple Crown he most certainly will win the MVP and deservedly so. But, if not, his numbers are not that much better than Braun's and because their numbers are very close, I'd vote for the guy who's led his team into the post-season.

They might be. It hasn't all been Upton. He's been 6.7 WAR and they have a 6 game lead. So it wouldn't take a guy too far above replacement to make up the difference. He's been great without a doubt, but their ascension has more to do with their 1-2 punch being amended with Collmenter and a complete 180 on their bullpen than it does with Upton having a breakthrough season.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve consideration for the award, definitely does, just saying that without him Arizona doesn't crumble.

[gcstomp]

So you're saying the D-Backs would be in 1st sans Upton? Not a chance.

No, I am not saying that. I am always puzzled when someone takes the ball and runs with it in a way not at all even suggested.

Baseball is a deep roster team sport, even the greatest of players will only make a few games difference over a league average player. Ok capped at maybe 12 or 13 games difference for a peak performing Barry Bonds who was playing out of his mins and on a completely different level than anyone else.

[DMT]

So you're saying the D-Backs would be in 1st sans Upton? Not a chance.

No, I am not saying that. I am always puzzled when someone takes the ball and runs with it in a way not at all even suggested.

Baseball is a deep roster team sport, even the greatest of players will only make a few games difference over a league average player. Ok capped at maybe 12 or 13 games difference for a peak performing Barry Bonds who was playing out of his mins and on a completely different level than anyone else.

That's why it was a question. And Paul pointed out that they might in fact still be in first even without Upton based on his WAR so I was off on my answer to the question as well.

And just to reiterate I'm not saying team performance should be a major consideration in the award but if there are a cluster of candidates at the top then team performance does become a consideration because there is simply more collective value on a playoff team versus a non-playoff team.

[Gregg]

I voted for Braun.

His numbers are very close to Kemp's. Without him I doubt the Brewers make the playoffs. I think that for Kemp to get it with his team not making the playoffs, he would have to have a larger gap in stats than he does. That said, I wouldn't complain if Kemp got it.

[B-Fly]

I think Kennedy was the biggest difference maker for the D-backs this year, in part because Upton was already pretty damn good when they were a losing team.

Hey, if there was a huge performance gap between Kemp and Braun, I'd give Kemp the nod, but their numbers are similar enough that I'd give the nod to the guy whose team won its division.

[OaklandA's]

That's why it was a question. And Paul pointed out that they might in fact still be in first even without Upton based on his WAR so I was off on my answer to the question as well.

The problem with this kind of logic is that if the D'Backs lose their last 6 games and end up beating the Giants by one game, would that make Upton a better candidate? It shouldn't.

The whole "wouldn't have made the playoffs without him" argument ends up leading to the best player on a team that just barely makes the playoffs. The Yankees are 7 games up on the Red Sox, and the Tigers are up by 12.5 over the Indians. Should all of their players be excluded from consideration? I don't think so, even though they would probably make the playoffs without Verlander or Granderson.

[joncarlos]

Hey, if there was a huge performance gap between Kemp and Braun, I'd give Kemp the nod, but their numbers are similar enough that I'd give the nod to the guy whose team won its division.

That's how I feel too. But my heart is still saying that I shouldn't dismiss Justin Upton.

[B-Fly]

Wrong. One man can't win a division, but he sure as hell can be the most valuable contributor to any one given team.

Barry Bonds took otherwise crappy teams to the post-season quite a few times. That's why he won the MVP a lot.

[gcstomp]

Barry Bonds is a singular freak show example. His numbers were so great he had to win MVP's, even if there were no team standings available to look up, you flip over the guys baseball card and all you see are popping in bold league leading numbers.

Writers hated him, public had no great love for him outside his hometown, generally regarded as a jerk and a clubhouse cancer to chemistry, Mr. Bad attitude was just so good that he arguably could have won 10 MVP's based on his War year by year stats.

But Bonds has little to do with reality, or this year, or these players in this race. There is no player so clearly above everyone else that voters MUST vote for him, as Bonds did when he forced the issue when he played.

[Erik]

The Dodgers could have the MVP, the Cy Young winner, and 23 other players who are mostly worthless.

[onejayhawk]

This is the tightest race I can remember. Also the closest vote.

Braun for me, but you could change it with a sneeze.

J

[Bernie Brewer]

I think Braun wins it for tonight's effort alone. A hugely clutch 3 run Jack to win the game and wait for Cubs help, but he also had a get defensive play. But I voted for the Big man, Prince, please stay!

[onejayhawk]

I think Braun wins it for tonight's effort alone. A hugely clutch 3 run Jack to win the game and wait for Cubs help, but he also had a get defensive play. But I voted for the Big man, Prince, please stay!

That kind of sneeze. If I wasnt already...

I must say that it doesnt always work that way. I remember in 1985 The Royals went into a 4 game set with Division leading Angels. Brett hit .500, slugged 1.200, or something close, played Gold Glove D, the Royals take 3 of 4, win the Division, the Pennant and the Series. Mattingly was MVP.

J

[revo]

I think Braun wins it for tonight's effort alone. A hugely clutch 3 run Jack to win the game and wait for Cubs help, but he also had a get defensive play. But I voted for the Big man, Prince, please stay!

I know you're excited, but the Brewers "only" had a 5 1/2 game lead. It's not like this was Bucky Dent or Bill Mazeroski here.....

[Long John]

Just to cloud the issue a bit, 2011 WAR values for the players being discussed:
Kemp - 8.3
Braun - 6.9
Upton - 6.7
Pujols - 5.6
Fielder - 4.8
Halladay - 8.0
Kershaw - 6.8
C Lee - 6.7
Kennedy - 4.9

And I think Joey Votto needs to be added to the discussion at least. His counting numbers aren't fantastic (.313, 98 R, 28 HR, 99 RBI, 8 SB), but with a 6.9 WAR, he's in the mix.

For the record, my vote is for Kemp. I think being on a last place team hampers him, but that just shows how much more valuable he is. He gets nothing to hit because has such little lineup protection and still kills it. If he were traded to another team, he would alter that team's fortunes more than anyone else on this list. That's why he is the Most Valuable Player.