Mariano Rivera Man-Crush Thread

[B-Fly]

602!

I think we absolutely need to have one. There's no doubt about Mo's status as the greatest of all time at the closer role. The only debate left is the importance of the closer role and how we should think about closers in discussing the all-time greats of the game of baseball.

[DMT]

Congrats, Mo is definitely among the all-time greats.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I don't care for the Yankees, but I really admire Mariano Rivera. He's a consummate pitcher, and he seems to be a quality human being as well.

[Moonlight J]

Congrats....always respected him. He was my first ever waiver-wire pickup when I grabbed him in early 1996 in a mixed league

[madducks]

He should have #700 by the end of 2013. No?

[joncarlos]

139.2 IP, 0.71 ERA, 42 saves in the playoffs. That's just sick.

I saw something on Twitter... counting the playoffs, something like 15% of his saves have been more than 1 inning.

I honestly have no idea where to rank him among all the pitchers in history. He only has 1200 innings. Addie Joss had similar ERA/WHIP numbers in a "short" career as a starter, and he had 2327 innings. He also pitched in a much different era, so his ERA+ is only 142. Give Rivera credit for higher leverage and his 205 ERA+ and you could probably argue that he's close to Joss in value.

The baseball-reference ELO rater (which is basically crowdsourcing) has Rivera ranked #23 and Joss #50. But that's heavily biased towards the present and I don't think I would put Rivera that high.

Would I put him Mo the top 50? I think I would.

[Sour Masher]

Even though relievers and starters both do the same thing, I really think they should be treated as seperate positions. That fact is, Mariano Rivera is the clear cut greatest relief pitcher of all time. In a sport with such a long history filled with so many great players, that is a truly special designation. I think it diminishes him, or any reliever, to compare their worth to starters, because starters, by the nature of their role, and how many more innings they pitch, are simply more valuable than relievers.

If we must go beyond saying Mariano Rivera is the greatest player to play his position in the history of baseball to ranking him against other players at a more valuable position, I'd put him in the top 20-25 range. I know many calculators would have him lower, but I think those calculators are not fully taking into account how many high value innings Rivera has pitched on what has proven to be the toughest stage for pitchers to perform on (think of how many NY pitchers have wilted under the heat of being a Yankee).

I can't put him in my top 20, because there are at least 20 all time greats I can think of that have twice as many innings as him. Even Koufax, in his injury limited career, has more than twice as many innings as rivera (of course pitching 137 CGs will help get that innings total up). Still, nearly every one of those innings for Rivera were high stress ones. I just don't know how we can compare relievers to starters fairly.

[B-Fly]

He should have #700 by the end of 2013. No?

No, I'd say that's unlikely. Figure he gets maybe 4 more saves this season, which is a generous estimate when you consider the opponents and the likelihood that they clinch soon and give him some days off - that's 606. Then he'd still need to average 47 saves per year through 2012 and 2013. Unlikely. I think he'd need to be the closer through 2014 to get to 700, which means he'd need a two-year extension on his current contract - taking him to age 45.

[TopChuckie]

No, I'd say that's unlikely. Figure he gets maybe 4 more saves this season, which is a generous estimate when you consider the opponents and the likelihood that they clinch soon and give him some days off - that's 606. Then he'd still need to average 47 saves per year through 2012 and 2013. Unlikely. I think he'd need to be the closer through 2014 to get to 700, which means he'd need a two-year extension on his current contract - taking him to age 45.

Until he has something even resembling a mediocre year I am expecting him to pitch forever. One of the many anointed heir apparents, most of whom have come and gone, Joakim Soria's 2011 was worse than any season Mo has ever had since becoming the closer and Soria is still considered a top 5 closer. When should Mo retire? When his ERA goes all the way up to 3.25? When he's only as good as the 5th best closer? This season was about as good as any he's had, there is no end in sight as far as ability goes. Desire may be another issue, especially once all his buddies have gone, but I can easily see him being as good as Brian Wilson or Leo Nunez or Francisco Cordero when he's 45 and beyond. Durability is really the only concern.

Pitching one good inning should be easy, but if it's easy how come no one can come close to doing it as well or as long? Every team should be able to have a Mo. If the closer position is not important, why is it so important to so many other teams that they are so quick to yank the guy who is currently doing it when he fails a couple times? What other position has so much turnover? So little tolerance for failure?

[Judge Jude]

"Mariano Rivera is the clear cut greatest relief pitcher of all time. In a sport with such a long history filled with so many great players, that is a truly special designation."

Edgar Martinez endorses your stance, taking a 'position' that realistically is 40-50 years old at most, and using the "all time" designation even though the traditional nine positions date back a century before that.

"Pitching one good inning should be easy, but if it's easy how come no one can come close to doing it as well or as long?"

Because the pitchers who could also do it easily are known as "starting pitchers." Also, Hoffman and Rivera have had virtually identical regular-season results (see below).

John Smoltz did ok there. The great Derek Lowe did ok there. If Randy Johnson was a closer, think he'd have shut the door a time or two?

Rivera is a unique guy who has a pitch that no one can hit with only one shot every once in a while. Does he have the repertoire needed to have made it as a starter? No.

Does he have a memorable career? Of course.

Is he worth putting in the Hall of Fame? Yes.

Should he be talked about among the 5000+ IP greatest starting pitchers of all time? No.

Is there a qualitative difference between the regular season Hoffman and Rivera careers? No. SV pct very similar, Rivera a little ahead but allowed 29 pct of inherited runners to score to Hoffman's 20 pct. Rivera more dominant, but not to the extent that it produced any significant difference in team results.

Are Rivera's postseason numbers spectacular? YES. Is it weird that with those numbers, he blew key games in three gut-wrenching postseasons? Yes.

The guy's great. But let's not make him as overrated as Sandy Koufax or Nolan Ryan.

[Bob Kohm]

Should he be talked about among the 5000+ IP greatest starting pitchers of all time? No.

Is JJ once again burying the heart and soul of the game under a mountain of esoterica? Yes.

[madducks]

Save #650 tonight. Joe Girardi and a lot of Yankees fans want him to go for 700.

[Don Quixote]

Save #650 tonight. Joe Girardi and a lot of Yankees fans want him to go for 700.

I don't see Rivera as the type of guy who makes a decision, announces it, then changes his mind. This is no Roger Clemens or Brett Favre.

He's getting out while he's still great.

[Judge Jude]

No chance he's coming back. He knew in spring training that he probably had just enough for one more good season, and no more...

[chancellor]

No chance he's coming back. He knew in spring training that he probably had just enough for one more good season, and no more...

Agree with the first sentence. Disagree with the second. He just simply has better things to do with his life, and as DQ noted, is a man of his word.