karinchak for Patino

[Sour Masher]

I inquired about getting Karinchak, and he is gettable, but I have to give Luis Patino. I like Patino a lot long term, but I also like Karinchak's upside as a high K reliever. Would you do this swap?

He really wants Patino, so I countered adding my Kepler ($12, last year) for his $5 Yastrzemski. He may cave and do that, but if he does not, is the 1 for 1 a good swap?

[Hornsby]

I inquired about getting Karinchak, and he is gettable, but I have to give Luis Patino. I like Patino a lot long term, but I also like Karinchak's upside as a high K reliever. Would you do this swap?

He really wants Patino, so I countered adding my Kepler ($12, last year) for his $5 Yastrzemski. He may cave and do that, but if he does not, is the 1 for 1 a good swap?

At this point I think that I'd do it...Patino has a fairly wide range of potential outcomes for the next couple of seasons, and now with TB, I think his upside is a little less that it was in SD. So yeah, IMO, the 1-1 is a equitable deal, probably a win for you for the next 2 seasons at least. If you can get Grandson Yaz, so much the better...

[chancellor]

I’m in full agreement with Hornsby.

[Bene Futuis]

I inquired about getting Karinchak, and he is gettable, but I have to give Luis Patino. I like Patino a lot long term, but I also like Karinchak's upside as a high K reliever. Would you do this swap?

He really wants Patino, so I countered adding my Kepler ($12, last year) for his $5 Yastrzemski. He may cave and do that, but if he does not, is the 1 for 1 a good swap?

Anything relevant about their salaries or your league's setup (especially if it's a Sv+Holds league)? I like both trade options well for you in a vacuum and I like Patino a lot, too.

[Sour Masher]

Anything relevant about their salaries or your league's setup (especially if it's a Sv+Holds league)? I like both trade options well for you in a vacuum and I like Patino a lot, too.

Both players are free, as they are minors elg. I can call them up at any time before they hit 75 IP and their salary will be $5. It's a points league that favors Ks over wins and saves, but does award 6.5 pts per win or save and 3 pts per hold. Top starters get more points than top relievers, but a high K reliever can get himself up there in points, into the top 10 among pitchers, though that is rare. Karinchak, even because we get 2 pts per K, a high K reliever, even without saves, will outscore a low end closer that has a bad era and whip but racks up 0 saves. Devin William, last year, was the 3rd highest scoring RP.

But since we changed our rules a couple of years ago to allow ESPN elg to dictate position rather than actual role, I have adopted the strategy to abandon true RPs completely and go with SPs that have RP elg. Last year it worked very well, as I snagged Maeda and Gausman and Carrasco and rode all of them at the RP positions. I did not get a single save all year, but did end up 2nd in total scoring, larely on the backs of having more points from the RP positions than anyone else.

I do not think that strategy will work again, as I do not project any good available SPs to be RP elg in 2021, and our scoring system for pitchers was specifically designed to punish streaming crap inning eaters, so a bad SP start can go very, very bad into the negative points. So, this year, I do plan on getting proper closers. I acquired Edwin Diaz and getting Karinchak would mean I'd have no need to spend on an RP in the auction. FWIW, I also have Jordan Romano in my minors, but I am uncertain if he ends up closing for the Blue Jays, and even if he does, he was much less upside in our scoring system.

[Sour Masher]

I ended up doing the deal. I did not get the OF swap, but I did get pick 21 for pick 34 in the deal.

[Teenwolf]

I ended up doing the deal. I did not get the OF swap, but I did get pick 21 for pick 34 in the deal.

Great deal for you. The pick swap isn't as good of a sweetener as Yastrzemski, but it does the job.

Karinchak's context could be difficult, as most small market rebuilding teams don't want to give the closer job to guys in the beginning of their service time. Saves blow up arbitration numbers, leading many teams to tab relievers past their arb years so it enhances their value rather than hindering it. Guys like Rosenthal for KC, or Rafael Montero filling in for Jose LeClerc.

What I'm getting at is that it takes a stud reliever to accelerate to the closers job immediately on a club like Cleveland, but he looks likely to claim the job.

Just don't be surprised if they give the job to Nick Wittgren or someone like him instead.

[joncarlos]

Great deal for you. The pick swap isn't as good of a sweetener as Yastrzemski, but it does the job.

Karinchak's context could be difficult, as most small market rebuilding teams don't want to give the closer job to guys in the beginning of their service time. Saves blow up arbitration numbers, leading many teams to tab relievers past their arb years so it enhances their value rather than hindering it. Guys like Rosenthal for KC, or Rafael Montero filling in for Jose LeClerc.

What I'm getting at is that it takes a stud reliever to accelerate to the closers job immediately on a club like Cleveland, but he looks likely to claim the job.

Just don't be surprised if they give the job to Nick Wittgren or someone like him instead.

Or Clase, who they might be less inclined to keep through all of his arb years.

[Sour Masher]

Great deal for you. The pick swap isn't as good of a sweetener as Yastrzemski, but it does the job.

Karinchak's context could be difficult, as most small market rebuilding teams don't want to give the closer job to guys in the beginning of their service time. Saves blow up arbitration numbers, leading many teams to tab relievers past their arb years so it enhances their value rather than hindering it. Guys like Rosenthal for KC, or Rafael Montero filling in for Jose LeClerc.

What I'm getting at is that it takes a stud reliever to accelerate to the closers job immediately on a club like Cleveland, but he looks likely to claim the job.

Just don't be surprised if they give the job to Nick Wittgren or someone like him instead.

If that happens, I don't think it will be a great deal for me . I like Patino a lot, so I'll be pretty bummed if I just dealt him for a middle relief guy, although in my league, he could still be a top 10 RP even in middle relief, if he ends up striking out triple digit batters and gets a bunch of holds. Still, I am hoping for the 9th, as striking out the side for the save is the vision that made me trade Patino for him.

[Teenwolf]

If that happens, I don't think it will be a great deal for me . I like Patino a lot, so I'll be pretty bummed if I just dealt him for a middle relief guy, although in my league, he could still be a top 10 RP even in middle relief, if he ends up striking out triple digit batters and gets a bunch of holds. Still, I am hoping for the 9th, as striking out the side for the save is the vision that made me trade Patino for him.

You should still be able to draft CLE handcuffs for him. Clase might not be available cheaply or freely, but Wittgren should be free... Not sure if Wittgren with worse ratios and K's but 25 saves is better than Karinchak with elite ratios and 20 holds, 0 saves... but thats the worst case scenario. I think Karinchak has a good chance to run away with the job, but Cleveland's cost cutting makes me nervous.

'Buy skills, not roles' is a good rule. In the end, despite my reservations I like the deal.

[Sour Masher]

You should still be able to draft CLE handcuffs for him. Clase might not be available cheaply or freely, but Wittgren should be free... Not sure if Wittgren with worse ratios and K's but 25 saves is better than Karinchak with elite ratios and 20 holds, 0 saves... but thats the worst case scenario. I think Karinchak has a good chance to run away with the job, but Cleveland's cost cutting makes me nervous.

'Buy skills, not roles' is a good rule. In the end, despite my reservations I like the deal.

Yeah, in my league, Wittgren would not be all that valuable, even if he closes, so I won't bother wasting a spot on him. I might have to use a prospect pick on Clase, though, just for peace of mind.

[Sour Masher]

Ok, I am blaming you all if this goes south for me, but TW and you other guys scared me about extending Lamet, so I just traded $5 Lamet for $5 Verdugo and Patino back. I feel it is the safer bet and going safe with the best keeper list in the league is probably the way to go. But man, was Lamet fun to watch last year. I wish him well.

[Teenwolf]

Ok, I am blaming you all if this goes south for me, but TW and you other guys scared me about extending Lamet, so I just traded $5 Lamet for $5 Verdugo and Patino back. I feel it is the safer bet and going safe with the best keeper list in the league is probably the way to go. But man, was Lamet fun to watch last year. I wish him well.

I'll take full responsibility here. I think its the smart play. Lamet could be a beast, or could be broken. Nobody else in baseball comes even close to throwing 50%+ sliders, so how will he survive the strain his arsenal puts on his arm?

Lamet's ceiling might be higher if he stays healthy.... but there is no "staying healthy" because he's already hurt. Verdugo's a quality bat, the type of profile I like. I see him in the Michael Brantley mold. He might only have a 25 HR ceiling, but if he's adding 10-15 SB and hitting 2nd or 3rd in the order, he could be a top earner. The rise in K rate last year was probably small sample noise, and still only rose to around league average. I also love that Verdugo is only entering his age 25 season. Lots of untapped potential there.

Getting Patino back is a nice bonus.

[Sour Masher]

I'll take full responsibility here. I think its the smart play. Lamet could be a beast, or could be broken. Nobody else in baseball comes even close to throwing 50%+ sliders, so how will he survive the strain his arsenal puts on his arm?

Lamet's ceiling might be higher if he stays healthy.... but there is no "staying healthy" because he's already hurt. Verdugo's a quality bat, the type of profile I like. I see him in the Michael Brantley mold. He might only have a 25 HR ceiling, but if he's adding 10-15 SB and hitting 2nd or 3rd in the order, he could be a top earner. The rise in K rate last year was probably small sample noise, and still only rose to around league average. I also love that Verdugo is only entering his age 25 season. Lots of untapped potential there.

Getting Patino back is a nice bonus.

Yeah, that was my thought process. I could have had Winker back instead of Verdugo, and Winker is not due for an extension, but I like Verdugo more as his splits are even, whereas Winker cannot hit lefities.

[Gregg]

Ok, I am blaming you all if this goes south for me, but TW and you other guys scared me about extending Lamet, so I just traded $5 Lamet for $5 Verdugo and Patino back. I feel it is the safer bet and going safe with the best keeper list in the league is probably the way to go. But man, was Lamet fun to watch last year. I wish him well.

I like this move. Probably more today than on Sunday when I was trying to trade for a $5 Lamet.

Lamet needs an extension unless I would want to play him out. I would normally want to give him two years to $15 and control him for the next three years. My keepers salaries would dictate that I could only give him a year to $10.

Looking at what SD is doing with their staff, reading some things that suggest he might not be ready, and possibly limiting his innings this year I am glad my trade offer was rejected.

Sometimes the best trades I make are the ones I don't.

I still like Lamet just not pre-auction this year.