Bartolo set record on Monday

[rhd]

Didnt find this out until later but on Monday, Bartolo Colon got his 244th win to set the all-time record for wins by a Dominican pitcher. The former record-holder was (no, not Pedro) Juan Marichal.

[Sour Masher]

Crazy. What an improbably career he has had.

[B-Fly]

That's pretty cool, although he's certainly not in Pedro or Marichal's class as a pitcher.

[onejayhawk]

Same team as Adrian Beltre, who reached the most hits by a player not born in the 50 states a couple of weeks ago.

But, Beltre really might the best player born outside the 50. Albert and Clemente can argue with him about it. I don't think anyone else is close.

J

[B-Fly]

Same team as Adrian Beltre, who reached the most hits by a player not born in the 50 states a couple of weeks ago.

But, Beltre really might the best player born outside the 50. Albert and Clemente can argue with him about it. I don't think anyone else is close.

J

I don't see how it's anyone other than Pujols. As for others in the argument beyond Beltre, Pujols and Clemente, I'd say Miggy Cabrera, Vlad Guerrero and Pedro Martinez deserve mention. Mariano Rivera is the best ever by far in his particular role, inclusive of US-born relievers, but it's hard to consider the reliever/closer role in the broader "best player" context.

[Ken]

I don't see how it's anyone other than Pujols.

Pujols might be the best hitter, but his lack of defensive contribution makes it unlikely he's the best player.

[B-Fly]

Pujols might be the best hitter, but his lack of defensive contribution makes it unlikely he's the best player.

Hitting contributes so much more to a player's value in terms of wins and losses than defense that you'd need to be within reasonable spitting distance as a hitter to leapfrog a better hitter based on your defense, in my opinion. Except maybe a catcher who is amazing at game calling, pitch framing, blocking wild pitches and holding runners. In which case maybe Yadier Molina and Pudge Rodriguez should be part of this conversation.

[Sour Masher]

Hitting contributes so much more to a player's value in terms of wins and losses than defense that you'd need to be within reasonable spitting distance as a hitter to leapfrog a better hitter based on your defense, in my opinion. Except maybe a catcher who is amazing at game calling, pitch framing, blocking wild pitches and holding runners. In which case maybe Yadier Molina and Pudge Rodriguez should be part of this conversation.

Yeah, Pujols at the top for me. But I wouldn't argue against Pedro. What he did during the height of the steroid era truly boggles the mind. Arguably the most impressive half decade of pitching ever, given the context. Lots of good options. Beltre is in that group.

[Ken]

Hitting contributes so much more to a player's value in terms of wins and losses than defense that you'd need to be within reasonable spitting distance as a hitter to leapfrog a better hitter based on your defense, in my opinion. Except maybe a catcher who is amazing at game calling, pitch framing, blocking wild pitches and holding runners. In which case maybe Yadier Molina and Pudge Rodriguez should be part of this conversation.

Pretty old school concepts, wasn't that type valuation thrown out a while back? Defense has significant value in real world baseball. Fantasy, no. But for true player value it's a big part of it.

[Teenwolf]

Pretty old school concepts, wasn't that type valuation thrown out a while back? Defense has significant value in real world baseball. Fantasy, no. But for true player value it's a big part of it.

The interesting part of defense factoring into valuations more these days is that all-bat, no-glove players can no longer be accumulators into their late 30's. Look at Hanley Ramirez... how quickly his defensive limitations seem to have snuffed out his job opportunities. They thought the same about Matt Kemp until his recent weight loss seemingly ebbed the fading of his defensive game...

Anyway, the point is, defense is built into career offensive stats by way of showing how they remained playable long enough to accumulate the necessary stats.

[onejayhawk]

Pretty old school concepts, wasn't that type valuation thrown out a while back? Defense has significant value in real world baseball. Fantasy, no. But for true player value it's a big part of it.

and Beltre at 3B is second on to Brooks on defense. Just sayin'.

J

[Ken]

Anyway, the point is, defense is built into career offensive stats by way of showing how they remained playable long enough to accumulate the necessary stats.

Agree to a point. An older player who stays on the field is an exception, so those stat accumulations on offense show that to an extent. You are exactly right there.

But players like Beltre who are putting up elite gold glove defense late in their careers deserve an even larger "bonus" based on defense.

[DMT]

Which foreign-born pitcher is the career leader in wins? The answer will likely surprise you.

[B-Fly]

Which foreign-born pitcher is the career leader in wins? The answer will likely surprise you.

Without looking it up, I'd assume Blyleven, no?

[rhd]

I was thinking it was someone born in Canada. I looked up quite a few names before I remembered that Fergie Jenkins was born in Canada. But Fergie won "only" 284, 3 less than Blyleven. So, I'm thinking B-Fly's answer is correct.