Is David Ortiz a Hall of Famer?

[revo]

As Ortiz takes his victory lap, he's in the midst of perhaps his best season ever(!)

He's clearly the best ever full-time DH, but is that enough to make the Hall? And can he overcome the allegations of PED usage?

BA: .285
OBP: .379
SLG: .550 (26th)
OPS: .929 (39th)
OPS+: 140
WAR: 52.6

Hits: 2358
Runs: 1364
HR: 515 (22nd)
XBHs: 1,140 (13th)
RBIs: 1686 (27th)
BBs: 1263 (49th)

9x All-Star
6x Silver Slugger
6x Top 10 MVP
3x World Champ
.295/.409/.553 post-season line w/17 HRs
.455/.576/.795 statline in the World Series
2013 World Series MVP

[joncarlos]

Numbers might be borderline for someone with zero defensive value. But he also had some great post-season moments. I don't give a shit about the PEDs (though I absolutely think he did, and might still be doing, them) so I would say yes.

[Sour Masher]

He was borderline a few years ago when we all thought he was done. But miraculously (or maybe PED fuelded?) he has been amazing the last few years, putting him in the sure thing category for me.

The only reason he wouldn't would be at this point is the PED stuff. You have to rightly ding him for his zero defensive value, but Paul Molitor was one of my favorite players and a deserving HOFer imo, and over half of his career innings were spent at DH, and I'm nout sure he provided much defensive value for the other half. And I think Ortiz, especially considering his post-season value was more valuable than Molitor.

[TranaGreg]

You have to rightly ding him for his zero defensive value, but Paul Molitor was one of my favorite players and a deserving HOFer imo, and over half of his career innings were spent at DH, and I'm nout sure he provided much defensive value for the other half. And I think Ortiz,
especially considering his post-season value was more valuable than Molitor.

well put. I definitely have a strong bias towards defensive contribution being a major consideration, but his post-season work gets him for me. just. but still in.

[wannabegriffey]

He was borderline a few years ago when we all thought he was done. But miraculously (or maybe PED fuelded?) he has been amazing the last few years, putting him in the sure thing category for me.

The only reason he wouldn't would be at this point is the PED stuff. You have to rightly ding him for his zero defensive value, but Paul Molitor was one of my favorite players and a deserving HOFer imo, and over half of his career innings were spent at DH, and I'm not sure he provided much defensive value for the other half. And I think Ortiz, especially considering his post-season value was more valuable than Molitor.

You are mis-remembering. In fact, it is careless to compare molitor and ortiz. Molitor spent considerable time at 3b and 2b, I don't think ortiz has seen those two bases other than when he hits a multi-base ball or when someone hides the kitkats out there on Halloween.

[revo]

You are mis-remembering. In fact, it is careless to compare molitor and ortiz. Molitor spent considerable time at 3b and 2b, I don't think ortiz has seen those two bases other than when he hits a multi-base ball or when someone hides the kitkats out there on Halloween.

Molitor played 2,683 career games of which 1,173 were spent at DH. So he wasn't wrong in saying Molitor spent half his career (it's more like 45%) at DH.

[wannabegriffey]

Molitor played 2,683 career games of which 1,173 were spent at DH. So he wasn't wrong in saying Molitor spent half his career (it's more like 45%) at DH.

Actually, he wrote OVER half his career at dh. Besides that, if we are talking HoF possibile, I don't think it fair to compare as 'dh' because of all the games at an actual position of defense...which ortiz does not have on his resume

[Sour Masher]

Actually, he wrote OVER half his career at dh. Besides that, if we are talking HoF possibile, I don't think it fair to compare as 'dh' because of all the games at an actual position of defense...which ortiz does not have on his resume

I went by career innings, not games played, but I see I was misreading that on baseball reference. In any event, I didn't have a keen eye for defensive play back then--he started his career when I was 1 . What value did he have as a defender when he was in the field? How much added value did he have by being out there?

I am very much in favor in discounting a good bit DHs, because they only play half the game, but it is a rule that allows them to do that, and in terms of overall value, how are they any worse than a negative value defender? In terms of value to their teams, a DH who doesn't have to field poorly is worth more than one who is forced to go out there and be horrible in the field. I mean, is Frank Thomas more of a HOFer than he would have been as a DH only player, for the god awful defense he played at 1b?

[wannabegriffey]

I went by career innings, not games played, but I see I was misreading that on baseball reference. In any event, I didn't have a keen eye for defensive play back then--he started his career when I was 1 . What value did he have as a defender when he was in the field? How much added value did he have by being out there?

I am very much in favor in discounting a good bit DHs, because they only play half the game, but it is a rule that allows them to do that, and in terms of overall value, how are they any worse than a negative value defender? In terms of value to their teams, a DH who doesn't have to field poorly is worth more than one who is forced to go out there and be horrible in the field. I mean, is Frank Thomas more of a HOFer than he would have been as a DH only player, for the god awful defense he played at 1b?

Frank Thomas was awesome with the bat and I love his stance on PED'S. I think the Big Hurt holds some record for most consecutive seasons of 100r/100rbi/100bb/100hr/100high fives/etc...

[wannabegriffey]

Frank Thomas was awesome with the bat and I love his stance on PED'S. I think the Big Hurt holds some record for most consecutive seasons of 100r/100rbi/100bb/100hr/100high fives/etc...

edit: I had to go look up thomas. from age 22 through 32, his second WORST on base for a season was .414. That is pretty amazing...

[Judge Jude]

Frank Thomas was similar to Albert Pujols Years 1-10
haven't looked in a while, but I imagine Pujols padded his lead and then - not as much.....

[chancellor]

Molitor was an average 2B and below average 3B early in his career; well below average at both later in career. He was probably the best pure base runner not named Rickey of that era - there may have been better base stealers, but in all other aspects, he was amazing.

All that said, DH or no, I just don't see how to compare Molitor to Ortiz.

[Sour Masher]

Molitor was an average 2B and below average 3B early in his career; well below average at both later in career. He was probably the best pure base runner not named Rickey of that era - there may have been better base stealers, but in all other aspects, he was amazing.

All that said, DH or no, I just don't see how to compare Molitor to Ortiz.

Well, they are very different players to be sure. And there is the PED aspect to Ortiz's career to consider. But my point was that if you are of the mind to put the PED stuff aside, as many here are, then it becomes a simple question of who was the more valuable player. And my secondary point was that Ortiz's zero defensive value wasn't worse for him in evaluating him as a player than another player who had a career negative defensive value.

I only watched Molitor later in his career, when he was primarily a DH and was a negative value defender. So, I brought him up as a HOFer whose entire HOF creds are based on what he did as an offensive player. Even there, we are comparing a speed guy with a power guy, but I think we probably all agree that purely as an offensive player, Ortiz has been just as valuable or more valuable than Molitor, especially considering his post-season heroics.

I suppose a better comp would have been Frank Thomas, but since Ortiz would fair more poorly with that comp, I went with a HOFer (who, again, I loved as a kid) who I believe everyone would agree SHOULD be a HOFer, who is also clearly in the HOF solely because of his offense, and who also had less offensive value than Ortiz. My logic in making that comp was that if Molitor is a HOF based solely on his offensive, and his offensive value was less than Ortiz, then Ortiz is therefore clearly a worth HOFer, even as a DH.

[onejayhawk]

Molitor was an average 2B and below average 3B early in his career; well below average at both later in career. He was probably the best pure base runner not named Rickey of that era - there may have been better base stealers, but in all other aspects, he was amazing.

All that said, DH or no, I just don't see how to compare Molitor to Ortiz.

Surely you mean in the AL. There was that guy in Montreal...

I think this is close, 16-0 vote not-with-standing. His defense and baserunning are strongly negative. The PED thing matters. He has Fenway propping up his BA. If you look at the tracking numbers at B-R, he's right on the line. He would need to be pretty over the top to overcome his liabilities as a player. He is. I am bucking the trend, but I won't argue the point much. Because he's in Bostopn, it's a sure thing when the time comes.

J

[cool hand]

It's easy to want to break down the HOF by numbers alone, and he fares pretty well in that, although obviously with the amount and tenor of discussion there is a degree of "gray" there and room for analysis.

But with Papi, his personality and standing in the game will make him a shoe-in, IMO. He's been central to the fabric of the game over the past decade+, and to the resurrection of one of the game's storied franchises. He's larger than life, one of baseball's true "face of the game" figures. I cant remember the last all-star/home run derby broadcast where he wasnt featured prominently. Couple that with the 500HRs, and the fact that people's last memories of him will be as a dominant player, and I think it's easy to see why he's got a 17-1 vote here. In a vacuum of purely statistical merits, which the Hall is not, maybe the vote is a little closer.