Gentlemen and Hornsby :)

[Ken]

As I get older, I seem to understand less and less why some leagues function perfectly well with crazy dump trades and some leagues implode. I'm in five keeper leagues, one being RJEL. In RJEL and three others, if the deal falls within the rules (under the cap, before the deadlines, etc) then there are ZERO complaints. In one of them, however, the first deal that even smells a little like a dump deal and everyone is howling and complaining and proclaiming that it's the ruination of the league. It's really a puzzling situation.

But I have come to this conclusion: Dump trades do not ruin leagues. There are many, many leagues that dump and have absolutely no problem with it. I'm in four of them. What ruins leagues are people who complain about dump trades. They stir up defensiveness and bad feelings and can continually point to the trade as the problem instead of their own preferences (insecurities?) of how things should be done, even though the deal falls within the rules. The truth is, it's never about the trade, unless the complaint is accompanied by an accusation of collusion.

If you aren't willing to accuse another owner of collusion, and the trade falls within the rules, and you still complain, YOU are the problem, and YOU are what ruins leagues.

Ah, if only it were that simple. It is rare, but collusion does occur in the form of a dump trade at times.

Ultimately, and sadly, it comes down to having owners that don't care, or aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently. And, inevitably, they have a friend in the league who they have known for years -- they trade away most of their assets for pennies on the dollar to one team because they don't give a shit and they'd rather see their friend win. And I'm not afraid to be the one who admits, that actually is collusion in that case.

The ultimate solution SHOULD be to kick out those owners. (And in most cases that is spelled out in the constitution). But generally we try to be nice to people and let them keep playing. We probably should not.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Ah, if only it were that simple. It is rare, but collusion does occur in the form of a dump trade at times.

Ultimately, and sadly, it comes down to having owners that don't care, or aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently. And, inevitably, they have a friend in the league who they have known for years -- they trade away most of their assets for pennies on the dollar to one team because they don't give a shit and they'd rather see their friend win. And I'm not afraid to be the one who admits, that actually is collusion in that case.

The ultimate solution SHOULD be to kick out those owners. (And in most cases that is spelled out in the constitution). But generally we try to be nice to people and let them keep playing. We probably should not.

I actually agree with all of this, but seeing as I have no friends in the league--you dont have to worry about collusion.

Now the issue of finding the moron...........Where's that mirror....

[Hammer]

in RJEL the reason the blue chip MLers are valued so highly is because you can conceivably own them forever. He gets called up and gets a zero designation and then goes to A the following year at a price between 1-6 dollars. After A, B and presumably an extension, you can own the guy for 6-7 years while his contract never exceeds $26.

as for the guy who dumps to his friend, I can say I have been accused of this in the past by some who choose not to see who I am . I talk to a guy or two daily and we bounce other peoples trade offers off each other and oftentimes feel we can do better so end up making a deal. Conversely, revo and I talk every day and go through the same routine but dont get nearly as many deals done. I think a lot is about timing and personalities more than anything else. At least in some cases.

What gets to me is when a guy seems to trade with one guy and when you send him offers, it sits for days with no response.


but I digress.....

[Fresno Bob]

As I get older, I seem to understand less and less why some leagues function perfectly well with crazy dump trades and some leagues implode. I'm in five keeper leagues, one being RJEL. In RJEL and three others, if the deal falls within the rules (under the cap, before the deadlines, etc) then there are ZERO complaints. In one of them, however, the first deal that even smells a little like a dump deal and everyone is howling and complaining and proclaiming that it's the ruination of the league. It's really a puzzling situation.

But I have come to this conclusion: Dump trades do not ruin leagues. There are many, many leagues that dump and have absolutely no problem with it. I'm in four of them. What ruins leagues are people who complain about dump trades. They stir up defensiveness and bad feelings and can continually point to the trade as the problem instead of their own preferences (insecurities?) of how things should be done, even though the deal falls within the rules. The truth is, it's never about the trade, unless the complaint is accompanied by an accusation of collusion.

If you aren't willing to accuse another owner of collusion, and the trade falls within the rules, and you still complain, YOU are the problem, and YOU are what ruins leagues.

All I ask on dump trades is that the dumper shop their talent around. In the NL only league The Dane and I share, we had one owner (RIP) that would routinely dump to the same owner without communication with the rest of the league. I always had a huge problem with this, and made it clear to both owners.

[Daver]

As I get older, I seem to understand less and less why some leagues function perfectly well with crazy dump trades and some leagues implode. I'm in five keeper leagues, one being RJEL. In RJEL and three others, if the deal falls within the rules (under the cap, before the deadlines, etc) then there are ZERO complaints. In one of them, however, the first deal that even smells a little like a dump deal and everyone is howling and complaining and proclaiming that it's the ruination of the league. It's really a puzzling situation.

But I have come to this conclusion: Dump trades do not ruin leagues. There are many, many leagues that dump and have absolutely no problem with it. I'm in four of them. What ruins leagues are people who complain about dump trades. They stir up defensiveness and bad feelings and can continually point to the trade as the problem instead of their own preferences (insecurities?) of how things should be done, even though the deal falls within the rules. The truth is, it's never about the trade, unless the complaint is accompanied by an accusation of collusion.

If you aren't willing to accuse another owner of collusion, and the trade falls within the rules, and you still complain, YOU are the problem, and YOU are what ruins leagues.

I don't post very often, but felt compelled to just say that in my 27 years of being co-Commissioner in my long standing league, this absolutely hits the nail on the proverbial head. I have already cut this response out and emailed it to my co-Commissioner.

Daver

[The Dane]

Ah, if only it were that simple. It is rare, but collusion does occur in the form of a dump trade at times.

Ultimately, and sadly, it comes down to having owners that don't care, or aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently. And, inevitably, they have a friend in the league who they have known for years -- they trade away most of their assets for pennies on the dollar to one team because they don't give a shit and they'd rather see their friend win. And I'm not afraid to be the one who admits, that actually is collusion in that case.

The ultimate solution SHOULD be to kick out those owners. (And in most cases that is spelled out in the constitution). But generally we try to be nice to people and let them keep playing. We probably should not.

Well said.

So, you aren't willing to be mean and kick a colluder, but you are willing to string them along, sow dissension, pass angry emails, and engage in "nice" behavior? Don't you see? THIS is the problem. The things you are doing to keep from calling someone out is ruining your league, causing anger and resentment and bad feelings. It's not about the trade at all. It's about your unwillingness to confront the real issue, which is your belief that one owner or another is colluding with a "friend in the league who they have known for years" or "aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently". You'd rather say "I think your trade is bad." than say what you are really thinking, which is "I think you are too stupid or disengaged to play in a league with us." I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do this, because it would make you look like a dick. No one wants that. But pretending it's about the trade makes you have to make up all sorts of nonsensical reasons why you're upset, and your obvious inauthenticity creates the problem you're blaming on the trade itself.

I can tell you right now what the value of Thor is in a keeper league: It's whatever someone will pay for him. End. Of. Story. Any other rationale as to why or why not he should or should not be included in any deal is merely obfuscating some real underlying problem inside one owner or another.

[DMT]

Well said.

So, you aren't willing to be mean and kick a colluder, but you are willing to string them along, sow dissension, pass angry emails, and engage in "nice" behavior? Don't you see? THIS is the problem. The things you are doing to keep from calling someone out is ruining your league, causing anger and resentment and bad feelings. It's not about the trade at all. It's about your unwillingness to confront the real issue, which is your belief that one owner or another is colluding with a "friend in the league who they have known for years" or "aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently". You'd rather say "I think your trade is bad." than say what you are really thinking, which is "I think you are too stupid or disengaged to play in a league with us." I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do this, because it would make you look like a dick. No one wants that. But pretending it's about the trade makes you have to make up all sorts of nonsensical reasons why you're upset, and your obvious inauthenticity creates the problem you're blaming on the trade itself.

I can tell you right now what the value of Thor is in a keeper league: It's whatever someone will pay for him. End. Of. Story. Any other rationale as to why or why not he should or should not be included in any deal is merely obfuscating some real underlying problem inside one owner or another.

Good post!

[Hornsby]

Ah, if only it were that simple. It is rare, but collusion does occur in the form of a dump trade at times.

Ultimately, and sadly, it comes down to having owners that don't care, or aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently. And, inevitably, they have a friend in the league who they have known for years -- they trade away most of their assets for pennies on the dollar to one team because they don't give a shit and they'd rather see their friend win. And I'm not afraid to be the one who admits, that actually is collusion in that case.

The ultimate solution SHOULD be to kick out those owners. (And in most cases that is spelled out in the constitution). But generally we try to be nice to people and let them keep playing. We probably should not.

As someone who's been commissioner in several different leagues, I have to say that I've never come across a case of obvious collusion, never. I've had bad trades, deals that cost me titles, and just crappy owners, but never straight out and out collusion. It's all in the valuation of players, and understanding what your owners want in a league. I also don't think that there should be commentary on proposed deals...it's just something that inevitably stirs the pot.

I will say that I played for a few years in a league where I'm fairly convinced that the commissioner had at least 2 teams, and maybe 3 that he was the owner of. I could be wrong, but I bailed out because I simply wasn't comfortable with my suspicions.

BTW, what Dane said.

[senorsheep]

All I ask on dump trades is that the dumper shop their talent around. In the NL only league The Dane and I share, we had one owner (RIP) that would routinely dump to the same owner without communication with the rest of the league. I always had a huge problem with this, and made it clear to both owners.

After years of wailing and gnashing of teeth over bad dump trades, I implemented this trade posting rule in our league:

14-A. Trade Posting (2002). If a trade meets the above requirements, the trade is subject to posting before it can be finalized. The trade will be announced by the commissioner via E-mail and posted on the league website for 72 hours. During this time, other owners may attempt to make their own offers to the participants in the primary trade. At the end of 72 hours, a final trade must be made, meeting these requirements:

• One of the owners from the primary trade must be involved.
• One of the players from the primary trade must be involved.
• If the final trade is different from the primary trade, it becomes the primary trade, and is re-posted per the previous trade posting rules.

It has worked fantastically. Bad trades have been virtually eliminated - on the rare occasion when an owner agrees to a lopsided stinker, another trade partner inevitably comes in with a more equitable deal. And bitching about trades has been virtually eliminated as well - no more "I would have made a much better offer if I had known he was giving him away" belly-aching. Now every owner does know, and can put his money where his mouth is by making a superior offer. Best of all, we've achieved all this without any heavy-handed veto rules that cause even more grumbling and bad feelings.

Trade posting has made our league much more enjoyable for everyone. If lopsided dump trades are a constant sore spot in your league, you might want to give it a try.

[Hodor]

Thanks again everyone.

I got a little heated last night, but Ken is a good guy who only cares about keeping it fair for every owner.

I obviously need to work on my writing as the miscommunication began with me.

Thor will eventually be traded, I'll be back then to post the offer.

Submitted for your approval.

[Ken]

Well said.

So, you aren't willing to be mean and kick a colluder, but you are willing to string them along, sow dissension, pass angry emails, and engage in "nice" behavior? Don't you see? THIS is the problem. The things you are doing to keep from calling someone out is ruining your league, causing anger and resentment and bad feelings. It's not about the trade at all. It's about your unwillingness to confront the real issue, which is your belief that one owner or another is colluding with a "friend in the league who they have known for years" or "aren't good enough to manage their team intelligently". You'd rather say "I think your trade is bad." than say what you are really thinking, which is "I think you are too stupid or disengaged to play in a league with us." I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do this, because it would make you look like a dick. No one wants that. But pretending it's about the trade makes you have to make up all sorts of nonsensical reasons why you're upset, and your obvious inauthenticity creates the problem you're blaming on the trade itself.

I can tell you right now what the value of Thor is in a keeper league: It's whatever someone will pay for him. End. Of. Story. Any other rationale as to why or why not he should or should not be included in any deal is merely obfuscating some real underlying problem inside one owner or another.

It seems like you must live in an ideal world, if only it were that simple. And some details here were really obscure and confused apparently.

Nothing is "ruining our league". The league I'm referring to is running quite well actually. No real issues.

And any "collusion", while it has likely existed in leagues that I've been a part of in the past, would be close, if not impossible, to prove. Pretending it doesn't exist is sticking your head in the sand though.

There have been no angry emails, outside of Doig losing it a bit when 2 guys in the league laughed at him about a trade proposal, and him posting a small portion of the trade on here asking whether it's fair (although oddly if he, like you thinks all trades are fair, why post it here? odd).

My side has never been angry, and in fact I encouraged Doig to pursue a trade like the one he posted on here.

And, I'm sorry, I can certainly encourage owners NOT to make these lopsided dump trades, because I know (from experience), that it will upset a lot of people -- they work hard to put together a good team and would likely end up outside the top few spots, not because they are bad at fantasy baseball, but because they didn't have a friend who dumped his whole team early. That's not fantasy baseball sorry, that's something else entirely.

It's odd how this got flipped around. I've talked to so many that hate fantasy dump trades, but apparently talking about it is taboo and we should pretend they don't exist. Seems silly.

I've been commish in this particular league for several years and it has run great. Never once have I had to veto a trade. All this theoretical garbage about how I'm a problem in this league is humorous though.

By the way, Byron, who started this website, is the co-commissioner of the league and is consulted on most, if not all decisions that are made. It runs quite well.

It seems you just enjoy attacking people based on false/incomplete information. You might want to consider not doing that without knowing the details.

[Ken]

Doig, you wanna man up and admit this was all pretty silly and move on? Or do you want to escalate this more?

Do you want to run this league? Lord knows I put in 10x as many hours as anyone else, just running the league and answering questions from you and every other owner, with no benefit. You want the job, I'm all for it - take over man.

[Hodor]

Doig, you wanna man up and admit this was all pretty silly and move on? Or do you want to escalate this more?

Do you want to run this league? Lord knows I put in 10x as many hours as anyone else, just running the league and answering questions from you and every other owner, with no benefit. You want the job, I'm all for it - take over man.

What this was, as I posted, was me making a preliminary offer to someone in the league and as admitted no being specific. I posted the exchange between you and I that followed. I don't know how you could continue to think I was attempting to justify a massive dump trade as I on many occasions explained that away.

It's like I sent you a text saying give me 1000 dollars but I actually meant 10 I explain that I meant 10 but you keep asking why you should give me 1000.

I'd love to be the commissioner. You know I feel our league is more than just a league at least to me. However I don't think you'd get approval from the other owners. I have always, every year, offered help with the league and gotten no response. So, there you are.

I'll take a lot of shit but the one thing I won't stand for is implications that I am not being forthcoming. I'm not saying that is your intention, but it is coming very close to that.

[Hammer]

why dont you guys stop posting in here and have a 1 on 1 conversation. There is no good coming from this post.

[Ken]

why dont you guys stop posting in here and have a 1 on 1 conversation. There is no good coming from this post.

You are 100% correct

I don't know why he took the 1 on 1 conversation and posted it here in the first place. I found it extremely odd and asked him to stop, but it continued for some reason.