Better have a backup 2B plan, Odor owners

[TranaGreg]

I've largely stayed out of this thread because I'm very aware that I'm not objective on this topic, for a couple of reasons ... obviously I'm from Toronto & a big Bautista fan, but also because I played a lot of competitive ball as a middle infielder, and think that the changes to the sliding rule this season are ridiculous.

That said, I have to ask a question ...

I don't think I can go along with the clear-headed and thoughtful part, but I do try to look at facts that don't just jump out and beg for notice. As I said, Odor did shove Bautista, but Bautista had to be close enough for Odor to shove him. Was Odor looking for trouble? I dunno. He still had his glove on. If I was looking to rumble, I'd sure drop my glove first.

I've seen this type of encounter way too many times. There's bad feelings between two guys, one guy steps in on the other, the second guy says "get off me" and shoves him back, and then the fight is on. That's why I say depending upon exactly how it happened, Bautista participated, possibly instigated. They'll punish Odor more harshly because he got in the big punch, but Bautista knows he got his ass beat in a fair fight.

Isn't the concept of the person who throws the first punch important here? I've seen you, and others talk about how Bautista "possibly instigated" this; there are lots of times where guys talk smack at each other & push & shove after a brushback pitch, but rarely does it escalate to someone actually hauling off & punching someone in the face. To me that's an escalation that deserves a significantly more serious punishment. We can argue whether Bautista was going to hit Odor ... maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but the reality is that Odor threw the first punch, and to me that's pretty significant.

But again, I'm from Toronto. I'll go back into my hole now & watch basketball tonight.

[mjl]

8 games confirmed, though he's appealing.

[Whitey]

Isn't the concept of the person who throws the first punch important here?

Not in my mind. Bautista had his fist cocked, presumably for a reason. Odor simply beat him to the punch.

[virgonomic]

Not in my mind. Bautista had his fist cocked, presumably for a reason. Odor simply beat him to the punch.

I think you need to watch it again. Tell me at what point Jose has his fist cocked, in the seconds before Odor lands a punch.

[Ken]

I think you need to watch it again. Tell me at what point Jose has his fist cocked, in the seconds before Odor lands a punch.

I tried to bow out of this earlier, but this is getting pretty silly. He has Odor measured with his left arm and his right hand is clenching into a fist. Are we really arguing over whether he had fully formed a completely clinched fist yet by the time he got clocked. Is that really a thing?

What was he about to do as he cocked his right shoulder back, reach in for the "tickle"?

We're smarter than this guys...

[Lucky]

I've largely stayed out of this thread because I'm very aware that I'm not objective on this topic, for a couple of reasons ... obviously I'm from Toronto & a big Bautista fan, but also because I played a lot of competitive ball as a middle infielder, and think that the changes to the sliding rule this season are ridiculous.

That said, I have to ask a question ...



Isn't the concept of the person who throws the first punch important here? I've seen you, and others talk about how Bautista "possibly instigated" this; there are lots of times where guys talk smack at each other & push & shove after a brushback pitch, but rarely does it escalate to someone actually hauling off & punching someone in the face. To me that's an escalation that deserves a significantly more serious punishment. We can argue whether Bautista was going to hit Odor ... maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but the reality is that Odor threw the first punch, and to me that's pretty significant.

But again, I'm from Toronto. I'll go back into my hole now & watch basketball tonight.

I agree with you that the first punch is a time honored way to determine who was the aggressor. "Okay, who threw the first punch?" You hear it anywhere young men gather. But isn't the only way, and not the most accurate way. Sometimes the first punch is thrown in self defense. That's the way I saw it with Bautista and Odor. You might have seen it differently.

Once Odor shoved Bautista away, Odor did not follow him. Bautista came back to Odor, and reached out his left hand to Odor's right shoulder. One can speculate on why. But whatever his plan, Bautista drew back his right hand and appeared to be getting ready to throw a punch. Odor, having obviously much quicker hands, struck first.

So it's more than Bautista was "going to" throw a punch. It appeared to me that Bautista was in the process of throwing a punch when he got nailed. One speaks to something which may happen in the future. The other speaks to something happening now.

So, Odor did without question land the first punch. But, would a reasonable person in his shoes believe he was about to be punched? There's a question.

[SlideRule]

So it looks like:
Odor: 8 games
Chavez: 3 games
Gibbons: 3 games
Bautista: 1 game
Andrus: 1 game
Donaldson: $1000

[virgonomic]

I tried to bow out of this earlier, but this is getting pretty silly. He has Odor measured with his left arm and his right hand is clenching into a fist. Are we really arguing over whether he had fully formed a completely clinched fist yet by the time he got clocked. Is that really a thing?

What was he about to do as he cocked his right shoulder back, reach in for the "tickle"?

We're smarter than this guys...

I saw Odor as the aggressor here, but that might be subconscious homerism. Watching it repeatedly, focusing on Jose (and ignoring Odor), I can see Jose rearing his right hand. I always saw Jose's left hand reach for Odor's collar, but interpreted that as self-defense (holding him back, not sizing him up).

That said, Odor threw a second punch while Jose was on the retreat. So, I maintain that Odor will get a longer suspension.

I think the original prediction of Bautista getting about half of what Odor does is probably fair.

[fuhrdog]

Just my humble, silly opinion.

I agree with you, guess I'm silly too.

[chancellor]

I enjoyed the discussion here.

The article by SI on the fight truly proved to me how far down the gutter SI has gone. Jon Tayler blamed the fight on "toxic masculinity". http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/05/15/ran...ned-odor-punch

PS: I hope they meet in a one-game wild card playoff.

[Ken]

I agree with you, guess I'm silly too.

*sigh* I was saying that it was silly that we were seriously arguing about whether his hand was fully clenched by the time the fist hit him in the face. And that's what I was saying we're smarter than.

But if that means I called you silly, sure. Grab a beer and relax guys. We are on a fantasy baseball forum. Everything isn't an insult! It's okay to say it's silly to be discussing something so petty. It really is...

[Ken]

Reasonable people can disagree without being called stupid. At least that's what my stupid ass thinks.

No one called you stupid, in fact I implied that everyone on this forum is intelligent! Good Lord.

[chancellor]

*sigh* I was saying that it was silly that we were seriously arguing about whether his hand was fully clenched by the time the fist hit him in the face. And that's what I was saying we're smarter than.

But if that means I called you silly, sure. Grab a beer and relax guys. We are on a fantasy baseball forum. Everything isn't an insult! It's okay to say it's silly to be discussing something so petty. It really is...

I believe this is why some advised you to stay away from the Sports Bar.

[Ken]

I believe this is why some advised you to stay away from the Sports Bar.

Heh, true story. Didn't realize so many could get their panties in a bunch so easily!

[Ken]

Heh, true story. Didn't realize so many could get their panties in a bunch so easily!

And before anyone cries, that's a figurative "panties in a bunch". I'm not implying that you wear panties.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...