Better have a backup 2B plan, Odor owners

[wannabegriffey]

I beg to differ. He intentionally went for a slide that's been banned by the league - that's intent to injure right there - and was clearly measuring up Odor to hit him. As Lucky adroitly noted, he's just an amateur and Odor by comparison was the pro. But Bautista was just as engaged in that fight as Odor was. Bautista shouldn't get off simply because he got his butt kicked in the fight.

But the slide was straight through the bag. Bautista wasn't swinging wide to take odor out at his knees. I do not know why this particular slide should even be illegal.

[virgonomic]

I beg to differ. He intentionally went for a slide that's been banned by the league - that's intent to injure right there - and was clearly measuring up Odor to hit him. As Lucky adroitly noted, he's just an amateur and Odor by comparison was the pro. But Bautista was just as engaged in that fight as Odor was. Bautista shouldn't get off simply because he got his butt kicked in the fight.

He slid illegally and the penalty was applied. After getting punched, Beltre kept Bautista away - I don't think he was engaged in the fight at all.

[Ken]

Absolutely agree. What Odor did was clearly assault, from what I've seen. I am not aware of any "dealing with punks" exception. I hope Odor gets a huge suspension and that Bautista gets none at all or something very minor. Hard slides are (were?) part of baseball. Punching opposing players is not.

From what I've heard, Bautista admitted he was trying to take Odor out with the late slide as retaliation for the HBP. I don't think an out would cover that. He will certainly be suspended.

[Ken]

Also, Brandon McCarthy's response is pretty funny:"

https://twitter.com/BMcCarthy32/status/731987172220243968

"was Bautista winding up to tickle him?"

Not sure how anyone could reasonably think Bautista wouldnt get suspended for the fight. I don't think "losing" the fight is a valid defense here.

[chancellor]

He slid illegally and the penalty was applied. After getting punched, Beltre kept Bautista away - I don't think he was engaged in the fight at all.

Ken's pretty much picked up my point. Bautista had his left hand in Odor's face, and his right hand in a fist, cocked to throw a punch. Odor just beat him to it.

[virgonomic]

Ken's pretty much picked up my point. Bautista had his left hand in Odor's face, and his right hand in a fist, cocked to throw a punch. Odor just beat him to it.

I just watched it again for that. I see Jose trying to grab Odor's collar with his left hand. Jose doesn't make a fist with his right until he's been punched. Are you watching the Rangers feed?

[Ken]

Sure, give him one game or something, I guess. Then he'll appeal it and he'll win.

You think that he'll get just 1 game for intentionally trying to take a guy out at the knees? It's one thing if he had said he was just sliding in to try to break up the double play and avoid the out, but he basically admitted to trying to injure Odor when he said he was doing it as retaliation for the HBP.

A hard slide, even in retaliation (which is kind of amusing to use as "evidence" of anything, since the HBP was clearly retaliatory in nature to begin with)

"clearly" retaliatory is a little presumptuous in a 1 run game with a pitcher who wasn't even on the team last year. We're all talking about the "pitcher" who had pitched 19.1 professional innings in the last 5 years? And we assume that one didn't get away from him. Odd...

, is not against the law.

Nancy Kerrigan would disagree

There is the "Utley Rule" which deals specifically with this kind of play. I think I agree with the others, though, who don't feel that this was even a bad slide to begin with. He was within the basepath and was sliding before the bag. Hard? Sure. Rules violation? Meh, maybe (probably not).

Uhhh, his slide took him about 6 or 7 feet past the bag, it's clearly a take out slide which is a rules violation. Not sure where you're getting this idea that it was not a bad slide. If Odor's leg was planted he'd be done for the season.

Conversely, Odor, as the aggressor after the baseball play had ended and the only one who committed a crime, should have something extremely severe, imo.

A "crime"? You must be kidding.

The punishment for his punk ass should be something significant enough to deter the next tough guy from throwing punches. Maybe others saw something I didn't, because what I saw was exactly what Andrewski saw: "Push the guy, wait for the guy to come at him, then swing for the fences." Hell, Odor even tried to drill him with the throw (another d-bag move not covered within the rules, to my knowledge.) Odor deserves very harsh punishment and Bautista little to nothing.

Haha, seems like you might have a LITTLE bias there. Both of them deserve suspensions. No doubt about it. And I have both of them on my main fantasy team.

Of course, I'll defer to the Judge in the house who obviously saw something different than I did.

Wise choice.

[Ken]

I just watched it again for that. I see Jose trying to grab Odor's collar with his left hand. Jose doesn't make a fist with his right until he's been punched. Are you watching the Rangers feed?

Sorry what exactly did you think Bautista was trying to do when he was holding Odor's collar with his left and cocking back his right arm? As McCarthy tweeted, did you think he wanted to tickle him? Haha.

[Hornsby]

This isn't a criminal matter, so nothing like that should apply here, it's strictly a baseball issue, one that will be dealt with by the commissioners office. The slide was hard and dirty, clearly late, and with a strong possibility to injure Odor, perhaps badly. Odor reacted poorly as well, which is why both players should should be suspended, but not more than 5 games.

I notice that Joey didn't want to tangle with the pitcher that drilled him with a 98 MPH fastball, perhaps he realized that Bush had spent 3 years in prison?

[BuckyBuckner]

Yes, I think that Bautista was clearly retaliated against for his bat flip in the playoffs last year. Whether or not that is actually the case is irrelevant. I think he'll get hit with some nominal one or two game suspension that will be lifted upon appeal. He didn't really do anything, imo. The rules kicked in, it was a double play, and should have ended the whole saga. Perhaps a borderline bad slide but nothing particularly unusual or egregious at all.

Yes, punching someone in the face is a crime. Is that somehow controversial? Try punching someone you dislike at your softball game and test whether that's actually true. Luckily for Odor the chances that his assault will be met with criminal charges are minimal. I wouldn't mind seeing rogue actors like Odor get charged, however unlikely that is. Throwing punches has absolutely no place in baseball for any reason ever, in my opinion. Ever.

Here's what I saw (and continue to see): a hard slide occurred, probably on the periphery of a rules violation. The umpires acted accordingly and ruled a double play, as is their prerogative under the new Utley Rule. Roughned Odor, however, first tried to drill Bautista with the ball. When that failed, he pushed Bautista. Bautista, predictably, reacted to the push by grabbing at Odor. Odor then continued by punching Bautista in the face.

I hope Odor gets nailed to the wall because I think he was a violent aggressor. I don't care about the Rangers, the Blue Jays, American League baseball, or either of these players. I own neither, although I did own Odor for years as a prospect in a former league. I do think Bautista is kind of a douchey player, generally speaking, but that's really neither here nor there. So, yeah, "haha", I guess. I don't feel any bias in this situation outside of whatever bias I hold against asswipes who punch people in the face and a slight bias against the entire state of Texas. I wouldn't mind seeing MLB make an example out of Odor and punish him very severely for his actions. I still do not think that Bautista deserves much punishment, if any at all. He was playing the game hard and might have broken a rule. Odor was trying to batter someone outside the scope of the game.

Players have been suspended across all sports even after the umpire/referee has given them a foul/penalty/out whatever the case may be. So suggest that because there was a double play called that Bautista will not face any further penalty is really being unaware of how these things work. Pitchers have been suspended when hitting a batter even after being thrown out of a game. Same for the NHL, a player gets a penalty for a high stick or illegal check and if the league feels that a suspension is warranted then they give him one. They don't say, "oh he was given a two minute penalty so the sage has ended."

I'm pretty sure that there has only been one instance of an action in a sporting game resulting in criminal charges and that was in the NHL. Did Nolan Ryan get arrested for his crime on Ventura? Nope.

Odor dropped his arm angle when he made the throw. This has been happening since the 1800s. You do that to protect yourself against a hard slide. Pretty standard.

[BuckyBuckner]

I didn't think my post was at all unclear. I guess I was wrong.

Re: Bautista and a suspension, I said: "I think he'll get hit with some nominal one or two game suspension that will be lifted upon appeal."

Re: the criminality of Odor's assault, I said: "Luckily for Odor the chances that his assault will be met with criminal charges are minimal."

This case is wholly unlike Nolan Ryan's situation, for very obvious reasons.

You were clear, I'm not sure I agree with it. It will be interesting to see what kind of suspension he gets since it's the first time this has really happened. I know the call has been applied before but none of them have lead to an altercation. I suspect a few game suspension as you say, but I disagree that it gets lifted.

[Lucky]

Eld, I had a post earlier which I deleted, as I thought this was about done. The essence was that let's assume, for sake or argument, that the slide was perfectly legal. That said, how did Bautista get within shoving range of Odor? I couldn't tell for sure, but it appeared as though Bautista came up to confront the smaller man. In any event, Odor shoved him away.

Then, once shoved, Bautista engaged Odor when he had the option (and duty) to walk away. And he engaged Odor by measuring him with the left and loading up the right. Problem is that Bautista is not much of a fighter, and Odor literally beat him to the punch. So, forgetting the HBP, forgetting the slide, looking only at what happened at 2B, the least you can say about Bautista is that he was a willing participant. There is an argument to be made that he was a ineffective instigator.

[Ken]

Feels like everyone is saying the same thing over and over again, and while civil at this point doesn't seem like it's going anywhere so I'll just leave this here.

Agree with Hornsby with his recap: "This isn't a criminal matter, so nothing like that should apply here, it's strictly a baseball issue, one that will be dealt with by the commissioners office. The slide was hard and dirty, clearly late, and with a strong possibility to injure Odor, perhaps badly. Odor reacted poorly as well, which is why both players should should be suspended, but not more than 5 games."

Both guys should certainly be suspended and likely will be. I suspect Odor's could be in the 5-10 range after appeal. Hopefully Bautista also gets a significant suspension because he deserves it. It is clear he was engaging in violent fight, he was reaching back to punch Odor when he got "beat to the punch", and I'm not sure getting your ass kicked when you were about to punch someone is a viable defense in this instance. McCarthy's tweet was the most appropriate analysis, Bautista wasn't about to tickle him, he was fighting.

If there's an assumption that Bush intentionally hit Bautista or that Odor was trying to hit Bautista in the face, then an equally "valid" assumption could be made that Bautista was trying to take Odor out at the knees which would be a potentially season or career ending injury.

If we want to start talking about "crimes" here then it opens pandora's box - do we really want the police brought in if there's a pitch up and in? I certainly don't think so.

I'm out - good discussion guys.

[Lucky]

That's just not how it appeared to me, I guess is the problem. It looked to me like Bautista and Odor were both running their mouths after the slide and neither were shying away from confrontation. Odor initiated the extracurricular physical altercation with a shove. Bautista, clearly not much of a fighter, made some sort of halfhearted move to maybe size Odor up after being pushed and Odor doubled down by throwing a right cross. Did Bautista even have the opportunity to retreat during this fairly quick exchange? I'm not so sure. Should he have kept his mouth shut and stayed well away from second base after the play concluded? Yes, definitely. However, it looked to me that the escalation to physical violence following the play on the field was wholly borne by Roughned Odor. Admittedly, I haven't looked for all sorts of angles on this play and have mainly been basing my statements on what limited footage I've seen. And, also admittedly, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your experience in evaluating these types of matters might be significantly beyond my own.

Edit: After thinking more about it, I think my bias lies against those who would resort to violence in the manner Odor did. It bothers me when people throw punches in retaliation, although I understand that there are situations that warrant that kind of response. Maybe this was one of those situations. If Lucky, a more clear-headed and thoughtful individual than myself, felt that it was then it likely was.

I don't think I can go along with the clear-headed and thoughtful part, but I do try to look at facts that don't just jump out and beg for notice. As I said, Odor did shove Bautista, but Bautista had to be close enough for Odor to shove him. Was Odor looking for trouble? I dunno. He still had his glove on. If I was looking to rumble, I'd sure drop my glove first.

I've seen this type of encounter way too many times. There's bad feelings between two guys, one guy steps in on the other, the second guy says "get off me" and shoves him back, and then the fight is on. That's why I say depending upon exactly how it happened, Bautista participated, possibly instigated. They'll punish Odor more harshly because he got in the big punch, but Bautista knows he got his ass beat in a fair fight.

[revo]

The rumor is 8 games, and the Rangers have switched Profar to 2B in the minors in anticipation of this.