Rafael Palmeiro - where he is now

[chancellor]

And Andro and creatine supplements are two different animals. Everyone knew what Andro was; any amount of elementary reading would clue in a halfway intelligent individual. Creatine supplements, at least up to five years ago, were still legal and are not banned by WADA.

I agree with your comment that it wasn't up to the coaches to rat out players or try and clean up the system, especially in the light that their employers opposed change, as did those they managed. But I'll hold that LaRussa for sure knew what was going down, and his denials to the same are laughable.

[Controller Jacobs]

What team wants him to wear their uniform for the HoF? Texas? Texas hasn't even put him in their team HoF (Palmeiro and JuanGon aren't in, Ruben Sierra, IRod et al are)

[Lucky]

Okay, I'm confused here. Nobody is saying that the managers should have squealed on their players. So, what should the managers have done? Let me state that differently. Most of the posters are extremely critical of the managers, to the point of wanting the out of the Hall of Fame. How could they have handled themselves differently? A good argument is made that managers were successful due to some players using PEDs. Do we think the managers coerced them to do it, or do we think the players did it to enhance their performance? If the managers had turned them in, would it have hurt the players' careers? Would the players have said "Thanks, Skip, for keeping me off the juice."

What exactly was the duty the manager had to turn a player in, and how did it conflict with his other duties? How many of you have turned in the alcoholic who works down the hall from you?

[The Dane]

What I'm arguing is this: Both the players and the managers were put in equally untenable situations during the Steroid Era.

Managers had to watch their players abuse PEDs, cover for them, lie to the press, keep the greater secret from leaking. What could they do? Pretty much just what they did, which was: try to keep the lid on, support their players, win games.

Players who had worked their lives away to make it in the game had to watch their peers take steroids and get ahead, sometimes take their jobs or their accolades, sometimes keep them in the game longer than they should be, taking jobs from younger players. They have to see this happening, and whether they want to or not, they are tacitly forced to take steroids. Estimates are, at the height of the problem, perhaps 80%-90% of players were using something illegal. Do you think all these players wanted to take something that risked their health, shrunk their nads to useless raisins, and made them moody assholes? I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of the players took PEDs because they felt they needed to to keep up, and that if they had the choice, they'd prefer NO ONE be taking them. But once all of the best players in the game were juicing, no one else had a choice. Just like the managers.

So, if both populations were in terrible situations with no real choice, no way out other than squealing or quitting, why are we still punishing only a small subset of players, and letting the managers skate?

There are probably less than 20 Hall-worthy players with the stink of PEDs. They are being punished. Are we saying that they represent the extent of the problem? Because unless we punish ALL of them, we're letting the overwhelming majority of guilty parties get off with no punishment and we're taking history away from some of the best players the game ever produced, PEDs or not.

I just get rankled at such an obvious travesty of justice.

[hacko]

I say Let everyone in the Hall who deserve to be in. Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Bonds ... Just put on their plaques their crime. Pete and Joe - Gamble . Bonds and Roger took Steriods. They are all part of History in the Era they played. Like Cobb and Babe only playing in an all white league. I find it stupid where we could have a Hall of Fame where the Hit leader and the Home Run leader are not in !!!!!

[Controller Jacobs]

I say Let everyone in the Hall who deserve to be in. Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Bonds ... Just put on their plaques their crime. Pete and Joe - Gamble . Bonds and Roger took Steriods. They are all part of History in the Era they played. Like Cobb and Babe only playing in an all white league. I find it stupid where we could have a Hall of Fame where the Hit leader and the Home Run leader are not in !!!!!

I say Let everyone in the Hall who deserve to be in. Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Bonds ... Just put on their plaques their crime. Pete and Joe - Gamble . Bonds and Roger took Steriods. They are all part of History in the Era they played. Like Cobb and Babe only playing in an all white league. I find it stupid where we could have a Hall of Fame where the Hit leader and the Home Run leader are not in !!!!!

But Joe Jackson, Pete Rose and Barry Bonds are all transcendent players, that a lot of people would be interested to see in the hall when they visit. Does Palmeiro have that?

Palmeiro's career stats are not just tainted by the PED use, they are completely overshadowed by it. What season of his do you remember? There was no WS, no MVP, no league lead in anything but doubles one year. In his best years at Texas, he was matched by now-forgotten Juan Gonzalez. He was a good player who had his late-career stats ballooned by drugs.

It all adds up to a borderline player that no team is interested in backing.

[price]

In a few years Pettitte will be on the ballot. He should not receive any more votes than Clemens or any other known ped user. If all ped users are kept out, then so should he.