Endless Dumpers, Pt. II

[revo]

here was my initial thread on the old RJ site:

"Are there teams in your keeper league that dump year after year? In my keeper league there are a couple of teams that as June rolls around, they're in their usual position: giving away their best players for minor leaguers. Thank you sir may I have another!



Clearly, they're doing something wrong and repeating their mistakes annually.

Keeper leagues should be cyclical: the best teams have an "arms race" and pay the price by trading their best keepers and minor leaguers to the dumpers. Then the following year, if the dumpers played their cards right, the practice should reverse as they have the prized keepers/prospects.

In my league a couple of teams have dumped three straight years! At what point does:

a) the dumpers try something new to compete; or,
b) the commish determine the perennial dumper is not savvy enough to be in the league.

IMO, if a dumper is going after players only because they're cheap (and wouldn't be keepers otherwise) or low-level minor leagues, they've hit upon a very bad strategy. And yet these teams repeat this mistake every single year.

Anyone else see the same teams dumping year after year? Do you just let these guppies feed the league while they sink to the bottom?"



Here's a review of one horrendous owner in my keeper league.

2008: first year in the league, dumped. Finished 14th of 17.
2009: Dumped. Finished 16th of 16.
2010: Dumped. Finished 16th of 16.
April 2011: Currently 17th of 18. No real major injuries. Hasn't spent a penny on FAAB yet.

Why does a guy like this pay good money to be beaten senseless every year? Is it safe to say this guy should not be in an "experts" league?

[BuckyBuckner]

First thought, who are the "best players" these teams are drafting? I've found that to get the best minor league prospects you need to have a real top of the line stud. Maybe these teams that end up dumping year after year aren't drafting these kinds of guys. Some teams prefer to draft all guys around $15 - $20 and spread the risk. Usually I find when this happens and it doesn't work out they have a hard time getting top value keepers. Is Alfonso Soriano really worth trading Bryce Harper for? No, that team is going to be looking for Pujols.

Just a thought.

[Gregg]

First thought, who are the "best players" these teams are drafting? I've found that to get the best minor league prospects you need to have a real top of the line stud. Maybe these teams that end up dumping year after year aren't drafting these kinds of guys. Some teams prefer to draft all guys around $15 - $20 and spread the risk. Usually I find when this happens and it doesn't work out they have a hard time getting top value keepers. Is Alfonso Soriano really worth trading Bryce Harper for? No, that team is going to be looking for Pujols.

Just a thought.

And a good thought.

I will add each keeper league has their own idiosyncrasies. Pay attention to the top 3 money winners and what they are doing.

[Hammer]

donate to the cause!!!!

[The Dane]

Why does a guy like this pay good money to be beaten senseless every year? Is it safe to say this guy should not be in an "experts" league?

Well, he probably shouldn't be in an "experts" league, but I believe that people who aren't good at something should still be able to do it if they want, especially if they pay their fees. When I was in my late-teens-early-twenties, there was a group of about 20 of us that would play sports on a twice-weekly basis. We would switch off between softball, flag football, basketball, tennis, racketball/handball, and croquet. It was a mixed group, about 60% male. Softball and football (and handball) were my games; I was usually the best player when we played those games. However, I am atrocious at tennis and basketball, but I had friends for whom THOSE were their games. Should I have not been allowed to play basketball with my friends because I was lousy at it? I think some people just enjoy doing the activity with other people, reading (if not participating) in the banter, enjoying the draft. Unless he's dumping only to the same team year after year, I say let it be.

[AbPow]

I think some people just enjoy doing the activity with other people, reading (if not participating) in the banter, enjoying the draft. Unless he's dumping only to the same team year after year, I say let it be.

Bingo. And my attitude towards these owners was always "X number of teams finish out of the money each year. If someone else wants to keep being one of them, that's one less non-money spot I can finish in."

[revo]

First thought, who are the "best players" these teams are drafting? I've found that to get the best minor league prospects you need to have a real top of the line stud. Maybe these teams that end up dumping year after year aren't drafting these kinds of guys. Some teams prefer to draft all guys around $15 - $20 and spread the risk. Usually I find when this happens and it doesn't work out they have a hard time getting top value keepers. Is Alfonso Soriano really worth trading Bryce Harper for? No, that team is going to be looking for Pujols.

Just a thought.

Here's the best players on his team the last three years:

2009
David Wright, Grady Sizemore, Derrek Lee, Robinson Cano, CC Sabathia, Brian Wilson

2010
Mark Reynolds, Joey Votto, Carlos Beltran, Nick Markakis, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jonathan Papelbon, Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Brandon Morrow

2011
Joey Votto, Justin Morneau, Carlos Quentin, Victor Martinez, Francisco Liriano, Brandon Morrow, Matt Garza, Vlad Guerrero

Surely he could've parlayed some of those names into decent players.

Personally, I think dumpers who routinely go after prospects rather than major leaguers with cheap salaries need the stars to align for a successful run at a title.

[revo]

Well, he probably shouldn't be in an "experts" league, but I believe that people who aren't good at something should still be able to do it if they want, especially if they pay their fees. When I was in my late-teens-early-twenties, there was a group of about 20 of us that would play sports on a twice-weekly basis. We would switch off between softball, flag football, basketball, tennis, racketball/handball, and croquet. It was a mixed group, about 60% male. Softball and football (and handball) were my games; I was usually the best player when we played those games. However, I am atrocious at tennis and basketball, but I had friends for whom THOSE were their games. Should I have not been allowed to play basketball with my friends because I was lousy at it? I think some people just enjoy doing the activity with other people, reading (if not participating) in the banter, enjoying the draft. Unless he's dumping only to the same team year after year, I say let it be.

I dunno.

Every league I'm in (3 baseball, 2 football), the owners always complain about participation, responsiveness, and general knowledge of the other owners:
"This guy didn't respond to my trade offer after 3 days!"
"Why the heck did he make that deal?"
"Is so and so ever going to make a lineup move?"

Maybe I'm in leagues that are very hardcore, but no one I know likes an owner who barely participates, having paid his fee or not.

What you're taking for granted in your comment is these fantasy baseball owners are actually playing. Seems to me they're kind of half-assing it, and a simple perusal of these team's transactions confirm that thinking. No lineup moves for weeks. No real activity post-dump, such as actively searching for bargains in FAAB that may be keepers. Making dump trades way too early in the season, so the "gems" they thought they had acquired turn out to be fool's gold. Misreading prospect values. Wanting to "get it over with" and including way too much in dump trades to get a single nugget. Etcetera.

If you like fantasy baseball and don't want to put much time in, play on Yahoo. But otherwise, pay leagues are like country clubs -- you pay your fees, but you still have to be invited. And can be disinvited.

[Hammer]

I dunno.

Every league I'm in (3 baseball, 2 football), the owners always complain about participation, responsiveness, and general knowledge of the other owners:
"This guy didn't respond to my trade offer after 3 days!"
"Why the heck did he make that deal?"
"Is so and so ever going to make a lineup move?"

Maybe I'm in leagues that are very hardcore, but no one I know likes an owner who barely participates, having paid his fee or not.

What you're taking for granted in your comment is these fantasy baseball owners are actually playing. Seems to me they're kind of half-assing it, and a simple perusal of these team's transactions confirm that thinking. No lineup moves for weeks. No real activity post-dump, such as actively searching for bargains in FAAB that may be keepers. Making dump trades way too early in the season, so the "gems" they thought they had acquired turn out to be fool's gold. Misreading prospect values. Wanting to "get it over with" and including way too much in dump trades to get a single nugget. Etcetera.

If you like fantasy baseball and don't want to put much time in, play on Yahoo. But otherwise, pay leagues are like country clubs -- you pay your fees, but you still have to be invited. And can be disinvited.

dude, calling me out like this is uncalled for. I will try to be more active.

[GwynnInTheHall]

We have a guy in our league that's a serial trader and usually ends up dumping, but last year made it to the top 6 I think, but this year is again in bad shape only a month in because he's traded himself into a crap team. I don;t mind dump trades in our league as they're pretty much a part of the fun-trying to out-maneuver your opponents. Our league is set up for tough competition, but also for fun. Of the 15, there are 10 tough owners, 5 not so tough who might seem to always be dumping, but it's because they don't seem to be able to draft and manage a winning team, so they quit about 2 months in and look to next year.

I's take a serial dumper over a non participant any day. Get this--There's a guy in our league who never returns emails, IMs or calls about trade offers and doesn't run his team--he had 5 guys who'd been on the DL in his active roster this week PLUS Manny freaking Ramirez!!! Give me an active idiot any day over that kind of complacency.

[The Dane]

But otherwise, pay leagues are like country clubs -- you pay your fees, but you still have to be invited. And can be disinvited.

Wow, really? You see playing in your league as akin to being in a country club!? A bit elitist don't you think? Okay, maybe I'll accept that for an "experts" league, but I believe regular pay leagues should be more egalitarian than you seem to believe. A league that tells someone who pays their fees and doesn't cheat that they aren't good enough to play is not a league I would want to be in. (Caveat: "experts" league)

Honestly, I think the whole "country club" environment is a gluttonous display of wealth and if I could burn them to the ground and not be held accountable (or hurt anyone) it would be my new hobby and I would travel around the country burning down country clubs and rolling around naked in the cold ashes.

[SenorSmoke]

Nobody seems to be very good at this in our league, but the successful dump trades have always involved "elite", very expensive studs in exchange for cheap, young studs on new contracts who have already broken out or are clearly on their way to breaking out (e.g. a $2 Pedroia in mid-early 2007 or a $1 Sizemore in early 2005). Usually these are two-for-five type of deals, and while a good prospect or two may get thrown in with the deal they should be a secondary consideration. The few times this has been executed correctly, one team goes on to win or almost win the championship on the backs of several over-priced studs, while the other team finishes in the money the next year with a solid core to build around. Too many teams end up trading for 5 versions of Brandon Wood or Andrew Miller instead and never end up going anywhere.

[revo]

Wow, really? You see playing in your league as akin to being in a country club!? A bit elitist don't you think? Okay, maybe I'll accept that for an "experts" league, but I believe regular pay leagues should be more egalitarian than you seem to believe. A league that tells someone who pays their fees and doesn't cheat that they aren't good enough to play is not a league I would want to be in. (Caveat: "experts" league)

Honestly, I think the whole "country club" environment is a gluttonous display of wealth and if I could burn them to the ground and not be held accountable (or hurt anyone) it would be my new hobby and I would travel around the country burning down country clubs and rolling around naked in the cold ashes.

I think you're missing my point.

You can't just "sign up and pay a fee" to get into someone's private league. You have to be invited in. Someone has to vouch for a new owner, especially if that person is not known among the majority.

Are you, or have you ever been, a commissioner of a pay league? When a spot opens, do you just take anyone who asks to join, or do you vet new owners, if possible?

If it's a re-draft league and the guy doesn't work out, no harm no foul. But in a keeper league there can be ramifications that tilts the balance of power.

[BuckyBuckner]

Here's the best players on his team the last three years:

2009
David Wright, Grady Sizemore, Derrek Lee, Robinson Cano, CC Sabathia, Brian Wilson

2010
Mark Reynolds, Joey Votto, Carlos Beltran, Nick Markakis, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jonathan Papelbon, Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Brandon Morrow

2011
Joey Votto, Justin Morneau, Carlos Quentin, Victor Martinez, Francisco Liriano, Brandon Morrow, Matt Garza, Vlad Guerrero

Surely he could've parlayed some of those names into decent players.

Personally, I think dumpers who routinely go after prospects rather than major leaguers with cheap salaries need the stars to align for a successful run at a title.

How deep is this league? Last year I'd say Beltran and Ellsbury were a bust, and Markakis is solid but nowhere near a stud. Reynolds was a huge drain on the batting average (though maybe you use OBP) and how valuable is Morrow in a mixed league? So really he had Votto, CC, Santana and Papelbon. That's a nice core to trade but other than Votto and CC I doubt he had people knocking down his door to obtain his players.

Also, since you are talking a mixed league (I'm used to 12 team "only" leagues) I agree that prospects aren't what you want to go after. But in my only leagues they are a very good trade commodity.

[Hammer]

How deep is this league? Last year I'd say Beltran and Ellsbury were a bust, and Markakis is solid but nowhere near a stud. Reynolds was a huge drain on the batting average (though maybe you use OBP) and how valuable is Morrow in a mixed league? So really he had Votto, CC, Santana and Papelbon. That's a nice core to trade but other than Votto and CC I doubt he had people knocking down his door to obtain his players.

Also, since you are talking a mixed league (I'm used to 12 team "only" leagues) I agree that prospects aren't what you want to go after. But in my only leagues they are a very good trade commodity.

This league was 16 owners and now 18. There is a 15 man ML roster and 6 rounds of ML draft picks as well as to keepers. Its deep and I can see where some get bogged down overvaluing the kiddies but that said, there are a few owners right now reaping immense benefits of patience with guys like Longo Cargo and others at 6 bucks or less while inflation pushes players like Adam Dun to $55 in the auction.


sorry to derail.