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Obama and Afghanistan
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Originally posted by johnnya24 View PostTo paraphrase that long post:
Hope that makes sense.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostWouldn't 4 pillars be like legs with no table-- not a table with no legs ?
So to conclude, Liberal Democracy without the 4 pillars of a table is just a plank of wood that explodes.
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MOPTI, Mali — Deep inside caves, in remote desert bases, in the escarpments and cliff faces of northern Mali, Islamic fighters are burrowing into the earth, erecting a formidable set of defen…
Al-Qaeda controls a territory larger than France in new Mali stronghold
"Al-Qaida never owned Afghanistan," said former United Nations diplomat Robert Fowler, a Canadian kidnapped and held for 130 days by al-Qaida's local chapter, whose fighters now control the main cities in the north. "They do own northern Mali."
Well we can't stand for that, can we ?---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Posthttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1230181
Al-Qaeda controls a territory larger than France in new Mali stronghold
"Al-Qaida never owned Afghanistan," said former United Nations diplomat Robert Fowler, a Canadian kidnapped and held for 130 days by al-Qaida's local chapter, whose fighters now control the main cities in the north. "They do own northern Mali."
Well we can't stand for that, can we ?"You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper
"One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski
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Originally posted by johnnya24 View Post
1) Osama, the ISI and the Taliban leadership had been patiently waiting for the US to leave. Public pressure in the US always leans in this direction. They know that.
2) The difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam, is that the conditions that caused the origins of the Afghanistan conflict have now been exacerbated 10 fold. So in all likelihood, the end of the Afghan conflict is just the start of something much more dangerous and threatening than the state of play in 2001. Especially looking at how hardline Islamism is taking root in the new (totally unprepared and unready) Liberal Democracies in North Africa. It's amazing how little we understand about Liberal Democracy, and how and why it works in the west. We naively traipse around the world imposing this system on countries who have no history or conception of left-wing or right-wing politics. It's a nonsense ... the void from the absence of left and right will be filled by extremist Jihadism. Fascism and Communism are the extreme expressions of Liberal Democracy ... without left or right, Jihadism (or Islamofascism) will fill the void in all these Muslim countries. The Quiet American nailed this naivety in the 1950's, and we still keep repeating the mistakes. Western style open liberal democracy has no business in nations like Afghanistan ... it will only create the conditions for extremism to foster (like Germany in the inter-war years ... open elections + extreme poverty/hardship = extremism). We are so naive.
3) When the US leaves, the Taliban will eventually return to Afghanistan and, with the help of Pakistan and $20b worth of US military equipment, get rid of the US puppet regime in Kabul.
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2) We are extremely naive to think we can go in and force our will on a contry like Afghanistan. And even if we do accomplish our goals, will they even work out for us ? Look at Iran with the Shah, Sadam Hussein in Iraq and even our one time support of the rebels in Afghanistan. We have no clue how things will play out a few years from now but that won't stop us from jumping in.
3) wouldn't be surprising at all. It will probably be stable as long as we want to keep pouring massive amounts of money to keep it that way---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
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Originally posted by Fresno Bob View Postdude, the freaking sun owns Northern Mali...it's basically the heart of the Sahara---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post1) Who is going to win the waiting game. It's not hard to figure is it ?
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post2) We are extremely naive to think we can go in and force our will on a contry like Afghanistan. And even if we do accomplish our goals, will they even work out for us ? Look at Iran with the Shah, Sadam Hussein in Iraq and even our one time support of the rebels in Afghanistan. We have no clue how things will play out a few years from now but that won't stop us from jumping in.
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post3) wouldn't be surprising at all. It will probably be stable as long as we want to keep pouring massive amounts of money to keep it that way
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Originally posted by johnnya24 View PostThat ship may have sailed after Abbatobad. I find it hard to see the US being able to pull out any time soon. I would be very worried if they did to be honest. A new war basically started in 2011, and noone is talking about this one. The short term security situation for America and American assets abroad in particular could get severe. Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan are still intact enough to re-emerge quickly. Strategically speaking, again not making a personal or ethical argument here, the US need to keep troops out there to provide a target for Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and to keep them from organizing again.
Not sure we had any choice in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda were going to keep attacking until we responded. Afghanistan was by necessity, not choice. Iraq was different ball game. What's naive (and extraordinarily dangerous) is thinking we can impose out form of government on these countries. That is pure ideology.
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Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
---------------------------------------------
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
Comment
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostNot sure sending Americans oversees to get killed is preferable. Unless we have strong reason to believe that Al Qaeda was going to be much more successful than they had been in the past. Part of that depends on if you view 9/11 as a one off event that we should have stopped with reasonable precautions or something that we could expect to see frequently. The whole War on Terror is a big Charlie Foxtrot at this point, that's for sure.
Pakistan betrayed the American's and supported and backed the Taliban and Al Qaeda before during and after 9/11. This has only become concrete since mid-2011. I don't think the American's are going anywhere any time soon.
The War of Terror is a load of crap of course. It was a soundbite to paralyze the population, and make them compliant to the Bush administrations illegal and unnecessary war in Iraq and the bullshit Orwellian legislation like the Homeland Security Act.
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Postyeah, that's part of what the article said. Except for the compounds hidden in their cave complexes. I'm sure it's impossible to plan an attack from there,huh ?"You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper
"One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski
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setting up an office in Qatar for the Taliban isn't going to do squat. they know how easily Afghanistan will buckle after we leave so they won't negotiate in good faith. and obviously the Afghan government and police aren't anywhere near to being ready themselves. which means we aren't leaving. not unless you want to make the same mistake that we made in Iraq and having to go back in again. it's the you break it you take it rule. but the best we can do with Afghanistan now is to try to just hold on to what we have. and if there's a country that you can force an unwanted military presence for more that 10 years than Afghanistan is such a country. strategically it just doesn't make sense to leave.
it's not how long your in a foreign country, it's how many combatants you have to kill to stay. we could have stayed in Vietnam. but we would have had to kill more than 4 million Vietnamese to do it. so if Obama wants to leave, that would be a pretty big mistake. because not nearly as many Afghan ppl have died to cause them to want to throw us out yet.
pop quiz: we leave and the Taliban rolls over Afghanistan. what do you do?
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So it begins...
Obama to announce withdrawal of 34,000 troops from Afghanistan, sources say
Los Angeles Times | February 12, 2013 | 7:30 AM
Sources said President Obama plans to announce in tonight's State of the Union address that 34,000 U.S. troops will be home from Afghanistan by next February, various news outlets reported today.
The address is also expected to call for compromise as the president invites Republicans to join him in a search for common ground -- and subtly dares them to not to.
The annual address -- the first of his second term -- comes as Obama faces a limited opportunity to pass legacy-making agenda items through a divided Congress while his political capital is still at its post-reelection high."Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)
"Your shitty future continues to offend me."
-Warren Ellis
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