Greatest Living American?

[GwynnInTheHall]

The greatest American might be someone who has some answers for this issue that could unite us around finding solutions.

I agree with this I just don't see anyone on the horizon, right, left or down the middle who might be able to accomplish this, let alone what the solutions (for another thread) might be.

The last time this country was in a United place was 9/11 and shortly thereafter and of course instead of building on that unity, those tasked with doing so used it to further their agendas.

Again, I hope you turn out to be a prophet KS, I'm just a bit too cynical anymore to hold out hope much longer.

[chancellor]

lol. If Obama had improved the life of most Americans significantly, the Dems would have had no problem defeating Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders would have been a politician none of us ever heard of. He was enormously popular, yet his policies were ineffective, leaving Americans looking for real change. Or maybe you think he was a great president and the dems only lost to Trump because Hilary was unopular ?

In May of 2016, polls had Clinton up on Trump from 9-20+ points. Even traditionally "conservative leaning" pollsters like Rasmussen and RCP had Clinton up 10-12 points. If there'd been a real lust for change, there's no way someone with Hillary Clinton's baggage would come out of the gates with an imposing lead. In six months, her lead had been frittered down by 60-70% in virtually every poll, from conservative leaning to neutral to liberal leaning. As I've said many times, it wasn't the economy, it wasn't Russians, and it wasn't Barack Obama - it was simply that Hillary Clinton ran the worst presidential campaign in modern history.

Now, could President Obama have led and managed to get passed policies that would have improved the economy further, granting Clinton so big of a lead that she couldn't have screwed it up? I suppose that's possible. But that's like saying he should have handed her the election on a diamond-studded platinum platter instead of the gold platter she was given. President Obama did more than enough to give Clinton an overwhelming lead; it's certainly not his fault she screwed it up. President Obama did not prevent her from showing up in Wisconsin. He didn't prevent her from showing up far too infrequently in Pennsylvania, and then only in Democratic strongholds. He didn't direct her campaign's maldirected campaign ads and spends. And I could go on with about thirty more utter failures of the Clinton campaign, none of which were Barack Obama's fault.

I don't consider President Obama to be a great president, but he was a whole lot better than Jimmy Carter.

[The Feral Slasher]

In May of 2016, polls had Clinton up on Trump from 9-20+ points. Even traditionally "conservative leaning" pollsters like Rasmussen and RCP had Clinton up 10-12 points. If there'd been a real lust for change, there's no way someone with Hillary Clinton's baggage would come out of the gates with an imposing lead. In six months, her lead had been frittered down by 60-70% in virtually every poll, from conservative leaning to neutral to liberal leaning. As I've said many times, it wasn't the economy, it wasn't Russians, and it wasn't Barack Obama - it was simply that Hillary Clinton ran the worst presidential campaign in modern history.

Now, could President Obama have led and managed to get passed policies that would have improved the economy further, granting Clinton so big of a lead that she couldn't have screwed it up? I suppose that's possible. But that's like saying he should have handed her the election on a diamond-studded platinum platter instead of the gold platter she was given. President Obama did more than enough to give Clinton an overwhelming lead; it's certainly not his fault she screwed it up. President Obama did not prevent her from showing up in Wisconsin. He didn't prevent her from showing up far too infrequently in Pennsylvania, and then only in Democratic strongholds. He didn't direct her campaign's maldirected campaign ads and spends. And I could go on with about thirty more utter failures of the Clinton campaign, none of which were Barack Obama's fault.

I don't consider President Obama to be a great president, but he was a whole lot better than Jimmy Carter.

In the last six elections, the margin has been more than 4.5% one time, when Obama had a 7.3% margin. Clinton never had a real 9-20% lead, no matter what poll you want to quote. Yeah, she has to own her loss. If Obama had taken the opportunity to improve the lives of Americans more than he did the Dems should have been able to defeat Trump. And as I mentioned, no one would have ever heard about Bernie Sanders if inequality/homelessness/corporate power was not a huge issue in America. And Clinton only lost because of Bernie Bros.

[Sour Masher]

Inequality rose tremendously during the Obama admin. Health care issues were not solved, life expectancy in America declined I am pretty sure. A huge percentage of Americans continued to struggle, living pay check to pay check. He didn't affectively address the real problems that exist in America. It may be unfair to expect him to....but that is the job, and I think if you look at the data he failed. And that is why I think Bernie and Trump were legitimate contenders. If a majority of Americans were doing well they would never have had a chance (no pun intended). Or maybe it was just because Hilary. Like Chance said, probably a topic for another thread.

You can just as easily claim that Bush's legacy is Obama. Every president is elected, in part, in response to the previous one, and while I think some criticism is valid for Obama not living up to the promises of hope and change he made, those coming down on him as hard as you seem to not be accounting for just how disastrous' Bush's presidency was, and what a huge hole Obama started in. The narrative that Obama spun his wheels and got nothing good done is overblown. He did not get enough done, but given the political climate he was in and the absolute opposition he faced, he still managed to at least point the country in the right direction on many issues (and again, I concede, he did not do this on other issues, like he promised). And not that it matters nearly as much as what he actually did and accomplished or did not accomplished, but given what followed him, it is hard not to long for the dignity and grace with which he held office compared to what we had to endure the following four years.

[Sour Masher]

Unless President Obama forcibly lobotomized Hillary Clinton, this makes no sense whatsoever. But that's probably for another thread.

Per this thread, and Sour Masher's comment, I don't hate Carter, but do hold him pretty much in total contempt. He was a terrible leader, and our country was demonstrably and measurably worse during his presidential term. I merely didn't like him in the 70s - his leadership came perilously close to ruining my life and my family's life due to his administration bungling of every aspect of the economy, leading to a disaster combination of outrageously high inflation, rapidly increasing unemployment, and increasing interest rates. But I came to hold him in complete contempt when later in life, he threw in his lot with those who celebrated Anwar Sadat's assassins and denigrated Anwar Sadat. With friends like Jimmy Carter, as many sadly learned, one simply didn't need enemies.

I was admittedly being understated in calling Carter's presidency "not great." I also admit to maybe being too generous with those who I think have their heart in the right place, even when they make bad mistakes. For instance, I have gone from despising Bush to thinking he is the second worst president of my lifetime, but not, at heart, a bad person, so despite his disastrous presidency, I don't hate the guy.

But clearly, picking a president veers this thread into hot topic land. No one has come out against Buzz or Dolly yet, so they are probably the frontrunners.

[Sour Masher]

I think Obama is credible candidate, even with the 40% or so of Americans who will disagree with that.

Elon Musk is interesting. It's not clear to me whether he's more Samuel Morse/Thomas Edison/Robert Fulton change-the-world, or whether he's a more complicated Carnegie/Vanderbilt/Rockefeller type who changed the world for the better, yes, but also did great damage to society and whose legacy is ultimately mixed.

I also think, and purposely left it vague, whether great means "influential on society", or "someone I admire and would like to emulate", or both.

Yeah, it depends on how one defines greatness, for sure, with Musk. He will definitely have a mixed legacy, and he is definitely not someone you want to point your kid to and say, that is a great person, act like him. But I think his making electric cars "cool" and massive influence on people embracing the switch from ICE, his influence on helping especially right-leaning young people to admit to the importance of the environmental crisis we face (which, is in part due to some of his faults, which separate him from the left and give him more credibility on the right), has accelerated the transition to a more sustainable future by many years and maybe decades. His ambition for humanity in general, despite his desire to have us aspire to reach such lofty goals on the backs of an exploited labor force, is inspiring (the ambition and optimism for what we can accomplish fast, not the part about doing it by forcing overworked, underpaid people to risk life and limb to get us there). In that way, he is similar to some other world builders like Carnegie/Vanderbilt/Rockefeller.

Gates fits that bill too (bad pun), but has made more of an effort to do charity work that has been life changing for millions and millions of people, which puts him ahead of Musk in terms of admirability. But the uncertainty about the extent of his philandering (did he engage with minors or coerced women?), contrasts with his philanthropy.

[The Feral Slasher]

You can just as easily claim that Bush's legacy is Obama. Every president is elected, in part, in response to the previous one, and while I think some criticism is valid for Obama not living up to the promises of hope and change he made, those coming down on him as hard as you seem to not be accounting for just how disastrous' Bush's presidency was, and what a huge hole Obama started in. The narrative that Obama spun his wheels and got nothing good done is overblown. He did not get enough done, but given the political climate he was in and the absolute opposition he faced, he still managed to at least point the country in the right direction on many issues (and again, I concede, he did not do this on other issues, like he promised). And not that it matters nearly as much as what he actually did and accomplished or did not accomplished, but given what followed him, it is hard not to long for the dignity and grace with which he held office compared to what we had to endure the following four years.

Sure. Every previous president impacts the following election. But no one here is claiming Bush is the greatest living American. Obama inherited a horrible situation, but he also had tremendous opportunities, which I think he failed to address for the most part. That is all I will say about Obama in this thread, probably said too much already.

[The Feral Slasher]

4 pages and nobody nominated me? I thought you guys liked me.

You are tied with ted cruz...although I am surprised he has not received a vote

[Sour Masher]

Sure. Every previous president impacts the following election. But no one here is claiming Bush is the greatest living American. Obama inherited a horrible situation, but he also had tremendous opportunities, which I think he failed to address for the most part. That is all I will say about Obama in this thread, probably said too much already.

I may have some bias, because I have two biracial children and I am glad, given the legacy of discrimination in this country, that Obama was able to become president and show them that anything is possible for them, despite the odds.

[The Feral Slasher]

I may have some bias, because I have two biracial children and I am glad, given the legacy of discrimination in this country, that Obama was able to become president and show them that anything is possible for them, despite the odds.

I agree, absolutely a great thing for the country and your kids !

[The Feral Slasher]

I wasn't looking for it, but I ran in to this article.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainmen...adian-1.510403

Tommy Douglas, the former Saskatchewan premier who is credited with being the founding father of Canada's health-care system, was named Monday night as the winner in the CBC's Greatest Canadian contest.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I wasn't looking for it, but I ran in to this article.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainmen...adian-1.510403

Tommy Douglas, the former Saskatchewan premier who is credited with being the founding father of Canada's health-care system, was named Monday night as the winner in the CBC's Greatest Canadian contest.

I learned at least two things from that article.

The celebrity who stumped on behalf of Douglas was George Stroumboulopoulos, the MuchMusic personality who will soon join the staff of the CBC.

One is that Stroumboulopoulos is a great name.

The other is that Alexander Graham Bell was apparently a Canadian.

[Steve 2.0]

I learned at least two things from that article.




The other is that Alexander Graham Bell was apparently a Canadian, eh.

fixed.

[TranaGreg]

well I can honestly say that I never expected to see a couple of 'murcans discussing George Stroumboulopoulos on RJ. ya never know what you're gonna find here (Strombo has been a low level radio then tv personality up here for decades)

[The Feral Slasher]

well I can honestly say that I never expected to see a couple of 'murcans discussing George Stroumboulopoulos on RJ. ya never know what you're gonna find here (Strombo has been a low level radio then tv personality up here for decades)

It's aboot time we talked about Strombo