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Thread: Societal Collapse

  1. #31
    Journeyman nullnor's Avatar
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    i still don't see what it takes to get my account deleted. i really don't want the shit i say hanging around the internet. it's not worth it. it's a fucking tee shirt of the week man. that's what our lives are.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by nullnor View Post
    i still don't see what it takes to get my account deleted. i really don't want the shit i say hanging around the internet. it's not worth it. it's a fucking tee shirt of the week man. that's what our lives are.
    I certainly hope they do NOT delete your account. The place would not be the same without you.

    Some take a vacation. Some leave for a long while and drop in once or twice a year or two. You have that option. Although I prefer more nully not less. Second choice some nully better than no nully.

  3. #33
    All Star TranaGreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nullnor View Post
    ...
    the scariest thing i ever read was as a species we have only been around a few million years. you could up it to 15 million is you want to say we are apes. insanely rapid pace on a geological scale is eloquent. but so many of animals had lasted so much longer. nature tried decadence, and that worked for a while. and now she is trying us. but it's daunting to think how many others have failed. where do we fit in? are we just some fly by night species on a geological scale like them?
    ...
    I have wondered something for a while - from an evolutionary perspective birds have been here way longer than any other species, being descendants of dinosaurs & all that ... so why aren't they the most intelligent species on the planet? unless intelligence isn't a quality or characteristic that really matters ...
    Last edited by TranaGreg; 09-28-2021 at 08:58 AM.
    It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

  4. #34
    All Star Sour Masher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TranaGreg View Post
    I have wondered something for a while - from an evolutionary perspective birds have been here way longer than any other species, being descendants of dinosaurs & all that ... so why aren't they the most intelligent species on the planet? unless intelligence isn't a quality or characteristic that really matters ...
    I think it has certainly mattered for us, especially in the last few hundred years, we have really seen how far it has taken us. But I think it is fair to ask if long term, it is advantageous to have our type of intelligence. The jury is still out on whether that ends up continuing to be a positive for our species. But yeah, evolution judges fitness by how effective we are at reproducing, and we have been able to grow our population exponentially recently. Other animals evolved other ways to be fit that are likely to prove more sustainable long term than our way.

  5. #35
    Journeyman nullnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TranaGreg View Post
    I have wondered something for a while - from an evolutionary perspective birds have been here way longer than any other species, being descendants of dinosaurs & all that ... so why aren't they the most intelligent species on the planet? unless intelligence isn't a quality or characteristic that really matters ...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid theoretical convergent evolution (Convergent evolution is the independent evolution of similar features in species of different periods or epochs in time)
    Although there are no known humanoid species outside the genus Homo, the theory of convergent evolution speculates that different species may evolve similar traits, and in the case of a humanoid these traits may include intelligence and bipedalism and other humanoid skeletal changes, as a result of similar evolutionary pressures. American psychologist and Dinosaur intelligence theorist Harry Jerison suggested the possibility of sapient dinosaurs. In a 1978 presentation at the American Psychological Association, he speculated that dromiceiomimus could have evolved into a highly intelligent species like human beings. In his book, Wonderful Life, Stephen Jay Gould argues if the tape of life were re-wound and played back, life would have taken a very different course. Simon Conway Morris counters this argument, arguing that convergence is a dominant force in evolution and that since the same environmental and physical constraints act on all life, there is an "optimum" body plan that life will inevitably evolve toward, with evolution bound to stumble upon intelligence, a trait of primates, crows, and dolphins, at some point.
    A model of the hypothetical Dinosauroid, Dinosaur Museum, Dorchester, UK

    In 1982, Dale Russell, curator of vertebrate fossils at the National Museum of Canada in Ottawa, conjectured a possible evolutionary path that might have been taken by the dinosaur Troodon had it not perished in the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event 66 million years ago, suggesting that it could have evolved into intelligent beings similar in body plan to humans, becoming a humanoid of dinosaur origin. Over geologic time, Russell noted that there had been a steady increase in the encephalization quotient or EQ (the relative brain weight when compared to other species with the same body weight) among the dinosaurs.[5] Russell had discovered the first Troodontid skull, and noted that, while its EQ was low compared to humans, it was six times higher than that of other dinosaurs. If the trend in Troodon evolution had continued to the present, its brain case could by now measure 1,100 cm3; comparable to that of a human. Troodontids had semi-manipulative fingers, able to grasp and hold objects to a certain degree, and binocular vision.

    Russell proposed that this "Dinosauroid", like most dinosaurs of the troodontid family, would have had large eyes and three fingers on each hand, one of which would have been partially opposed. As with most modern reptiles (and birds), he conceived of its genitalia as internal. Russell speculated that it would have required a navel, as a placenta aids the development of a large brain case. However, it would not have possessed mammary glands and would have fed its young, as birds do, on regurgitated food. He speculated that its language would have sounded somewhat like bird song.

    Russell's thought experiment has been met with criticism from other paleontologists since the 1980s, many of whom point out that his Dinosauroid is overly anthropomorphic.




    birds are kind of weird. they aren't really reptiles but they aren't mammals either. and if birds are dinosaurs then they evolved from cold blooded to warm blooded. evolving convergently, birds and mammals share enhanced hearing, vocal communication, endothermy, four-chambered heart, high blood pressure, and intensive parental care.

    the quick answer is they got hit by a meteor. I think intelligence and cooperation, self-awareness are required. having a lot of extinction events doesn't help. whales are a weird species. they started as a dog like land species and ended up in the sea with good intelligence. I am smarter than a great ape but I can't really say if I am smarter than a dolphin. I guess I am but if all the chirps and whistles they do is a language, they would have a lot of different sounds or names for objects in the ocean.

  6. #36
    Journeyman nullnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sour Masher View Post
    I think it has certainly mattered for us, especially in the last few hundred years, we have really seen how far it has taken us. But I think it is fair to ask if long term, it is advantageous to have our type of intelligence. The jury is still out on whether that ends up continuing to be a positive for our species. But yeah, evolution judges fitness by how effective we are at reproducing, and we have been able to grow our population exponentially recently. Other animals evolved other ways to be fit that are likely to prove more sustainable long term than our way.
    the greatest threat to a planet is natural impact. environmental and manmade catastrophes may happen, but an impact is eventually guaranteed to happen. thus, nature's goal would be for a planet's own species to evolve to prevent it. the goal of intelligence and survival is to evolve into Bruce Willis in the movie Armageddon. and then when you negotiate with NASA, you request to bring back eight-track tapes.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nullnor View Post
    the greatest threat to a planet is natural impact. environmental and manmade catastrophes may happen, but an impact is eventually guaranteed to happen. thus, nature's goal would be for a planet's own species to evolve to prevent it. the goal of intelligence and survival is to evolve into Bruce Willis in the movie Armageddon. and then when you negotiate with NASA, you request to bring back eight-track tapes.
    It has been a long time between impacts (the last one and the next one). How do you suppose we have made it this long? Given history it could be thousand of years or maybe millions right?

  8. #38
    Administrator revo's Avatar
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    Interesting that some Canadian authors have very recently published books about the coming end of American democracy, and how their country could deal with it.

    Now while that may be sensational, a good conspiracy theorist can put together a somewhat rational map of how that could happen:

    1 - The House and Senate go to the GOP
    2 - some red states actually start to overturn elections based on nothing more than "they lost"
    3 - Former Guy actually gets re-elected
    4 - they move forward with eliminating the filibuster
    5 - As some kind of payback for getting "jilted" out of his rightful 2nd term in '20, he brainwashes the House & Senate to repeal the 22nd Amendment, allowing him to serve another term (even at the ripe old age of 82, which is what they argued against just a few years back)
    6 - his 2nd term is all about paybacks and getting even with political enemies, at the expense of the population, as well as further limiting voting rights
    7 - having had enough, some blue states begin to have discussions about seceding
    8 - just like in 1861, the red states pre-emptively secede, forming the "United States of Former Guy"
    9 - USFG starts to enact its own laws, which includes outlawing abortions, allowing anyone to walk the streets with firearms, controlling what is taught in schools, and building a wall around major border entrances
    10 - Other, non-connected parts of the now former US start to form their own independent countries, such as Idaho/Eastern Oregon, The Dakotas/Montana, etc.

    Doesn't sound too far fetched now, does it?

  9. #39
    All Star heyelander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revo View Post
    Interesting that some Canadian authors have very recently published books about the coming end of American democracy, and how their country could deal with it.

    Now while that may be sensational, a good conspiracy theorist can put together a somewhat rational map of how that could happen:

    1 - The House and Senate go to the GOP
    2 - some red states actually start to overturn elections based on nothing more than "they lost"
    3 - Former Guy actually gets re-elected
    4 - they move forward with eliminating the filibuster
    5 - As some kind of payback for getting "jilted" out of his rightful 2nd term in '20, he brainwashes the House & Senate to repeal the 22nd Amendment, allowing him to serve another term (even at the ripe old age of 82, which is what they argued against just a few years back)
    6 - his 2nd term is all about paybacks and getting even with political enemies, at the expense of the population, as well as further limiting voting rights
    7 - having had enough, some blue states begin to have discussions about seceding
    8 - just like in 1861, the red states pre-emptively secede, forming the "United States of Former Guy"
    9 - USFG starts to enact its own laws, which includes outlawing abortions, allowing anyone to walk the streets with firearms, controlling what is taught in schools, and building a wall around major border entrances
    10 - Other, non-connected parts of the now former US start to form their own independent countries, such as Idaho/Eastern Oregon, The Dakotas/Montana, etc.

    Doesn't sound too far fetched now, does it?
    I'm not sure how anyone thinks the states in step 10 aren't contiguous with the USFG.
    I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by revo View Post
    Interesting that some Canadian authors have very recently published books about the coming end of American democracy, and how their country could deal with it.

    Now while that may be sensational, a good conspiracy theorist can put together a somewhat rational map of how that could happen:

    1 - The House and Senate go to the GOP
    2 - some red states actually start to overturn elections based on nothing more than "they lost"
    3 - Former Guy actually gets re-elected
    4 - they move forward with eliminating the filibuster
    5 - As some kind of payback for getting "jilted" out of his rightful 2nd term in '20, he brainwashes the House & Senate to repeal the 22nd Amendment, allowing him to serve another term (even at the ripe old age of 82, which is what they argued against just a few years back)
    6 - his 2nd term is all about paybacks and getting even with political enemies, at the expense of the population, as well as further limiting voting rights
    7 - having had enough, some blue states begin to have discussions about seceding
    8 - just like in 1861, the red states pre-emptively secede, forming the "United States of Former Guy"
    9 - USFG starts to enact its own laws, which includes outlawing abortions, allowing anyone to walk the streets with firearms, controlling what is taught in schools, and building a wall around major border entrances
    10 - Other, non-connected parts of the now former US start to form their own independent countries, such as Idaho/Eastern Oregon, The Dakotas/Montana, etc.

    Doesn't sound too far fetched now, does it?
    Yes, yes it does.

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