The new COVID thread

[The Feral Slasher]

If I were elderly or at-risk, sure. Otherwise I'm OK with catching the flu.

About half of Americans get flu shots every year. I think Ken's point was that getting boosters for Covid should not be a big deal if many already do it for a much lower threat.

[Ken]

About half of Americans get flu shots every year. I think Ken's point was that getting boosters for Covid should not be a big deal if many already do it for a much lower threat.

That was exactly my point. Getting a shot a couple times a year is not some burdensome ask, a ton of people already do it and it's no big deal.

[umjewman]

That was exactly my point. Getting a shot a couple times a year is not some burdensome ask, a ton of people already do it and it's no big deal.

Yeah, but if a ton of people jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

[The Feral Slasher]

Yeah, but if a ton of people jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

I would look down from the bridge for some additional info. Then FORENSICS

[chancellor]

Yeah, but if a ton of people jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

Where I live, a ton of people might only total six or seven, so no.

[nullnor]

I'm pretty sure this is false. A brief survey of the literature suggests it is complete bunk, and that vaccines create IgA in the saliva, which is a good proxy for IgA in the mucous membranes of the respiratory and digestive tracts.

I wasn't going to say anything but one of the studies I found did say the mRNA Pfizer shot appeared to result in some secretory IgA antibodies. they also tested one of the adenovirus vaccines Sinovac and that one didn't. I looked a little further into it and I found this Mucosal immune response in BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine recipients https://www.thelancet.com/journals/e...582-X/fulltext

On December 6th, 2021, we searched PubMed website for published peer-reviewed research articles written in English using the search terms “BNT162b2 vaccine”, “salivary antibodies” and “oral mucosal immunity”. Several studies have shown that BNT162b2 COVID-19 mRNA vaccine induces neutralizing antibody responses in healthy adults and one single dose promotes a similar or even higher immune response in individuals with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection than in infection naïve individuals receiving two-dose immunization. However, we identified only three studies investigating the activation of a specific oral mucosal immunity after mRNA vaccination. They reported that within 1-2 weeks after the second dose, vaccinated subjects had S-protein IgG antibodies in their saliva, while IgA were detected in a substantial proportion, but results were inconsistent. Assessing the mucosal immune response might provide further information about the vaccine efficacy in protecting the host from the infection, since the mucosal sites represent the first route of entry of the virus.

Our findings indicate that intramuscular administration of the mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine promotes a strong systemic immune response but only weakly induces the production of salivary IgG and in less extent salivary IgA. The low IgA antibodies titre in saliva suggests a lack of stimulation of secretory IgA and therefore an ineffective activation of mucosal immunity by systemic vaccination. Distinct routes of immunization, such as the nasal or oral, might represent a new challenge in the booster doses of vaccine to increase oral or respiratory mucosal immunity against SARS-CoV-2, as at these sites the first contact with the virus takes place. This should be desirable to block primary virus infection more efficiently and to obtain sterilizing immunity.

I think a nasal vaccine would be a better way to stop transmission in the future.

[nullnor]

this was the study I found. The Mucosal and Serological Immune Responses to the Novel Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) Vaccines https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...21.744887/full

Our study reveals that both Comirnaty and CoronaVac induce plasma SARS-CoV-2 S1-specific IgA, IgG, and NAb. However, Comirnaty, but not CoronaVac, was also able to induce S1-specific IgA and IgG in the nasal mucosa.

It is commonly believed that intramuscular vaccines do not induce mucosal immunity effectively.

Conclusion
Despite being a vaccine administered via the intramuscular route, Comirnaty, and likely other mRNA vaccines, induces S1-specific IgA and IgG in the nasal mucosa of vaccine recipients as early as 14 days after the first dose. The NELF neutralizing effect infers protection from SARS-CoV-2 infection at the upper respiratory epithelium when the level of NAb is sufficiently high. This extra arm of protection at the mucosa, on top of the well-characterized serological antibody development, might further reduce the chance of SARS-CoV-2 infection, in addition to its effectiveness in protecting the recipient from hospitalization and severe disease. Though the response may be transient, it is possible that a more rapid elevation in antibodies may occur within the mucosa when the subject is exposed to live viruses, thus conferring protection from infection even before the virus breaches the mucosa. CoronaVac vaccine induces an IgG-dominant response in the plasma of recipients with neutralizing effect but does not produce any mucosal antibody response. The additional information relating to mucosal response and the direct comparison between two vaccine technologies provides critical insights into how to best utilize these different vaccines from a public health point of view.

for some reason both papers raise some non-specific safety concerns of making nasal vaccines and say things like 'The presence of a nasal response with mRNA vaccine may provide additional protection compared with inactivated virus vaccine. However, whether such widespread immunological response may produce inadvertent adverse effects in other tissues warrants further investigation.'

I don't know

[nullnor]

The finding that the BNT162b2 vaccination poorly induces salivary IgA suggests that these Ab were not mucosal-evoked sIgA but originated most likely from serum, by transudation from the blood circulation. Thus, in the examined population, the low mucosal immunity detected is mostly represented by salivary IgG rather than IgA. Consistently, after the boosting dose of vaccine only 18% of SN (seronegative or never infected) showed neutralizing activity in saliva.

On the contrary, 60% of virus-exposed subjects before vaccination (here designed as seropositive or SP) developed NAb in their saliva after vaccine administration. Indeed, in this group the increase of salivary IgA was more pronounced, and the serum/saliva IgA ratio was ten-fold higher than in unexposed individuals. This observation suggests that in subjects with previous SARS-CoV-2 natural infection the presence of some “mucosal” immunity mirrors the activation of B cells that can switch toward the production of IgA after vaccination, as also suggested by recent reports.

this stuff is fascinating. if it wasn't so grim. anyways, I stand by my statement this is the reason it's non-sterilizing. although, sometimes it is sterilizing and sometimes it isn't. this unexpected result raises the question of where the lipid nanoparticles are travelling.

[The Feral Slasher]

Depends what you mean by "effective, lasting immunity" ... I think that any kind of prior infection will bolster your immunity against future strains, as will vaccines. And combined, that is about the best shot we have.

I do not want to catch Delta. But we will have to live with Covid, just like we live with Influenza etc, and I imagine at some point in the future I will be exposed to a Delta-like strain that will attack my lungs more vigorously that Omicron.

I would like my immune system to be best equipped to deal with that eventuality. Hybrid-immunity seems like the best we can muster right now. And all the data suggests Omicron is everyone's best bet to achieve hybrid-immunity without risking the more severe side effects of the other strains.

So I guess no, I don't believe it will give "effective, lasting immunity", but it's the best we've got.

We have no more plays really. As much as I am pro-vaccine - I don't fancy the prospect of getting boosted every 6 months of the rest of my life - and that certainly won't fly with the wider population.

Clearly we are going to find out if exposure to Omicron provides helpful long term immunity. I'm doubtful, but we can hope at least. And hope there isn't too much carnage.

[The Feral Slasher]

If only everyone could/would just get vaccinated. quite amazing how much vaccines help. Nully, take a look and let me know what you think. Please consider getting a vaccination.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1479528897259712513

[nullnor]

additionally ppl could say, but nullnor, injecting mRNA lipid nanoparticles and not completely knowing where all of them may end up is a good thing because it can unexpectedly induce a mucosal and innate immune response. and I would agree.

[The Feral Slasher]

If only everyone could/would just get vaccinated. quite amazing how much vaccines help. Nully, take a look and let me know what you think. Please consider getting a vaccination.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/sta...28897259712513

Your cats depend on you ! They need you, don't let them down, make the smart choice.

[The Feral Slasher]

additionally ppl could say, but nullnor, injecting mRNA lipid nanoparticles and not completely knowing where all of them may end up is a good thing because it can unexpectedly induce a mucosal and innate immune response. and I would agree.

lol, yes people could say that. ha ha. look at the numbers. what is the smart choice? Make sure you are there for your cats and others that appreciate you.

[Sour Masher]

If only everyone could/would just get vaccinated. quite amazing how much vaccines help. Nully, take a look and let me know what you think. Please consider getting a vaccination.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/sta...28897259712513

I have been eager for such data. I am not seeing enough difference between being boosted and just having the initial two shots to justify the focus on boosting in developed nations when there are so many completely unvaccinated people worldwide. Charts like that make it clear that the greater good, by far, is focusing on getting everyone double vaxxed at this point. The difference between vaxxed and not vaxxed is night and day, while the difference between being boosted and not boosted is minuscule.

ETA: Although, that chart goes back to May-that includes numbers from before getting boosted was even possible.

[The Feral Slasher]

additionally ppl could say, but nullnor, injecting mRNA lipid nanoparticles and not completely knowing where all of them may end up is a good thing because it can unexpectedly induce a mucosal and innate immune response. and I would agree.

do you have data on "injecting mRNA lipid nanoparticles and not completely knowing where all of them may end up is a good thing because it can unexpectedly induce a mucosal and innate immune response" ? Show me some links that quantify that risk. Then we can compare to hospitalization/death data and make a good decision