The new COVID thread

[Sour Masher]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

I can't find a deadline date anywhere. Is there one? Will this hold up? If so, this is a huge game changer. But this is unprecedented as far as I can tell. Ballsy move, but I am skeptical it will mean all these folks get vaccinated soon or if it even holds up against the legal challenges. Do you think it might? If so, when might we see it actually be enforced?

[Sour Masher]

You all see that anti-masker woman who was so disgusted with a mask wearing mom and child (who are following the mandate in their area) that she hacked all over them with glee as she continually followed and mocked them for being scared sheep? She has been fired. #consequences.

https://www.insider.com/coughing-kar...t-viral-2021-9


Watch the video only if you want to feel enraged. Her firing couldn't have happened to a more deserving COVID Karen. I think she should face assault charges too. I honestly do not know what I would have done if this woman started coughing on my kids. I'm very glad I was not put in that situation, because I would not have handled it as well as this mother. I also sincerely hope she is not hired and lionized by some right-wing media outlet. Hell, she might win an election for being brave and coughing all over kids during a pandemic.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1435200650804146177

The Reddit user who posted the video, Jessabird, said in her post, “So my kid and I were at the store tonight to pick up a few groceries when this lady approached us and said politely, ‘Excuse me,’ and to be honest I thought she was going to ask me for help or ask where something was. I was about to say ‘I don’t work here, lady,’ when she asked why we were wearing masks. That’s when I realized that she wasn’t wearing one herself.”

Jessabird added:

I started walking away, while replying, ‘Because of the Delta variant, and also because there’s a mandate.’ Then she went on about how she was born and raised here in Nebraska, and it’s too bad that some Nebraskans have turned into sheep. She asked if I’ve had a vaccine and said that my kid and I don’t need to wear masks because we look young and healthy. There were several other people around wearing masks but for some reason she chose to pick on me and my kid

At the end of this video, some poor guy working there tried to intervene and basically told us all to just go our separate ways. Karen walked away and I told the guy what happened. He said it wasn’t the first time he’s had to deal with people like her at work. I then tried to continue my shopping but this lady followed me around the store.

I told her she needs to keep her distance and that her coughing on me was assault. She laughed and kept saying ‘Look at you, it’s so cute how scared you are!”‘By this time I was absolutely livid, trying my best to hold it together in front of my kid. I didn’t finish my shopping, instead I went to the self checkout to pay for my stuff. Next she followed me to use the self checkout right next to mine. I informed the employee manning the checkouts that this woman had assaulted me in the store by coughing deliberately on me, but I didn’t wait around to see what the employee would say in response. I just really wanted to get us the heck out of there.

[Bene Futuis]

I can't find a deadline date anywhere. Is there one? Will this hold up? If so, this is a huge game changer. But this is unprecedented as far as I can tell. Ballsy move, but I am skeptical it will mean all these folks get vaccinated soon or if it even holds up against the legal challenges. Do you think it might? If so, when might we see it actually be enforced?

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. SCOTUS affirmed vaccine mandates over a century ago and they have been employed throughout our nation's history in numerous ways.

[madducks]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

I've been hearing rumors for a few weeks now that UPS was going to make it a requirement for employment. Now, when the anti-vaxxers complain, management can blame it on Joe.

[Sour Masher]

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. SCOTUS affirmed vaccine mandates over a century ago and they have been employed throughout our nation's history in numerous ways.

I assume you are referring to state mandates. Have we ever had a national mandate? Here is a source that suggests it has not been done before and that a federal mandate may not hold up:https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...solid-science/

Federal and state governments: States have long had the constitutional authority to mandate vaccinations, which the Supreme Court has upheld twice, first in 1905 and then in 1922. The federal government, however, has limited power to mandate vaccines. It can only require them to prevent transmission of a dangerous infectious disease across state lines or international borders. The federal government has never sought to require nationwide vaccinations, and the courts probably would not allow it

[madducks]

People who do their "research" on Facebook don't like fact checkers lol.

[chancellor]

I assume you are referring to state mandates. Have we ever had a national mandate? Here is a source that suggests it has not been done before and that a federal mandate may not hold up:https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...solid-science/

Federal and state governments: States have long had the constitutional authority to mandate vaccinations, which the Supreme Court has upheld twice, first in 1905 and then in 1922. The federal government, however, has limited power to mandate vaccines. It can only require them to prevent transmission of a dangerous infectious disease across state lines or international borders. The federal government has never sought to require nationwide vaccinations, and the courts probably would not allow it

Neither smallpox nor polio vaccines were done under national mandate, but due to the interstate transmission potential of the disease, I think you could put forward a strong case for a national vaccine mandate. However, in how the president has chosen to implement it, I think there's a lot of roads for challenge and potential overturn. Specifically,

- the 1905 precedent you noted, and I believe Bene is implying, is Jacobsen v Massachusetts. SCOTUS did uphold the Massachusetts law - which, importantly, was a law, passed through the Commonwealth's House, Senate, and signed by the Governor. Moreover, the law had a buyout "opt out" option. Subsequent rulings appear like they've handled the buyout issue, but I'm leery that the Court will draw a parallel on an act fully implemented by the Executive Branch, with no Congressional approval. And that doesn't even consider the issue whether the Department of Labor has the reach to institute such a rule.
- the 1922 precedent you noted, I am pretty sure is Buck v Bell. That definitely broadened Jacobsen is a big way. Some of it has been modified, but at least to my knowledge, Buck v Bell has never been fully reversed. And to quote the greatest Admiral of all time, Admiral Ackbar, "It's a TRAP!!". Biden's legal team could well win a 9-0 decision in favor of his vaccine mandate, but end up gutting Roe completely should they go down this path.

I'm wondering how fast this will get to SCOTUS, and who will be arguing the case.

[Bene Futuis]

The way Biden did the mandate for private business makes it much, much more likely to pass constitutional muster. There is no doubt that government may impose mandates for vaccinations of deadly disease. That has been law for more than one hundred years and the Jacobson decision is almost shockingly broad. There is also the notion that the federal government must impose mandates according to federal statute. OSHA's authorizing legislation, signed into law by Nixon more than 50 years ago, provides just such a statute. OSHA has specific carve-outs for emergency standards to promote worker safety. The one hurdle will be that mandates promulgated under OSHA are subject to a review and comment period, or something similar, which will likely take place simultaneously to the passing of the mandate under emergent circumstances (ongoing COVID and emerging Delta variant health emergencies). Clearly this whole topic, though, falls easily within the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.

Edit: I also think a national mandate requiring everyone to be vaccinated, assuming some narrow exceptions for medical and religious objection, would also easily pass constitutional muster.

[Moonlight J]

How can they enforce the mandate though?

Mask mandates have been a joke because there is no enforcement outside of signs on doors. I've yet to walk into a business and see employees refuse to help or accept money from unmasked customers.

I'd like to see mask enforcement folks put into society, like parking enforcement. $20 fines for not following indoor mask mandates as stores, shops, etc with funds going to Healthcare Worker relief fund. Creates jobs and gives funds to the group most tasked by the hardliners who continue to confuse their rights with their responsibilities.

[Bene Futuis]

The mandate will require vaccinations, and proof thereof, but not masks. Opt-outs will be in place for those who show negative tests relatively frequently (2x/week? can't remember). Companies with 100+ workers fined something like $14k for each noncompliant employee.

[umjewman]

When did RJ become my Constitutional Law class from 1L?

[umjewman]

How can they enforce the mandate though?

Mask mandates have been a joke because there is no enforcement outside of signs on doors. I've yet to walk into a business and see employees refuse to help or accept money from unmasked customers.

I'd like to see mask enforcement folks put into society, like parking enforcement. $20 fines for not following indoor mask mandates as stores, shops, etc with funds going to Healthcare Worker relief fund. Creates jobs and gives funds to the group most tasked by the hardliners who continue to confuse their rights with their responsibilities.

I laughed last night because I had to run to Staples for a "school supply emergency" and there's a big sign on the door that says "MASKS REQUIRED." I walked into the store and the first 5 customers I saw had no masks on. It improved after that but, yeah, there's no realistic mask enforcement.

[Bene Futuis]

When did RJ become my Constitutional Law class from 1L?

I believe a vaccine mandate would survive strict scrutiny, assuming some sort of religious exception (which this one does have). It certainly survives a rational basis test with ease, imo.

[umjewman]

I believe a vaccine mandate would survive strict scrutiny, assuming some sort of religious exception (which this one does have). It certainly survives a rational basis test with ease, imo.

My eyes started to glaze over at strict scrutiny. Although Con Law was wayyyyyyy better than Property Law. Kiss my ass, Pierson v. Post.

[Sour Masher]

As more stories are pushed highlighting prominent right-wing anti-vaxxers dying of COVID, the thing that strikes me the most is that many of these folks actually believed what they are selling, enough to die for their beliefs. I really figured most people peddling crazy do it because it sells, not because they actually believe it. But seeing so many of them die unvaxxed, it seems a lot of these folks are touting their sincere beliefs. I guess it does not matter all the much in the grand scheme, but it makes me think of them differently.