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Miss Nevada - first transgender Miss USA Contestant

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ken View Post
    This one is probably a trap but there's concern to work through here that the physical testosterone differences provide a relative advantage in bone density and muscle mass/strength to those who are born male, right?

    It's like asking why it's different for a freshman to play on a varsity team vs a senior playing on a freshman team. One is an advantage, the other is not.
    Exactly--it is a trap. If the concern is an Physical or strength advantage--I'd ask--where's the outrage over parents who intentionally hold their kids back in school to allow them that same type of advantage going forward?

    FWIW, I would think very few, if any, biological males transition to gain a competitive advantage in women's athletics. Intent means quite a bit from my POV. AND the number of actual Trans women competing in women's sports is so small, again--why the outrage? If you ban Trans women, where do you stop? Some biological women has quite a bit of testosterone as nature doesn't create identical people.

    Is the outrage REALLY about gaining an advantage? And if so-shouldn't any non natural advantage be the issue?
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Comment

    • #17
      Originally posted by Ken View Post
      Why does it seem like " and get off my lawn " belongs at the end here.
      Very astute, the current generation of kids nowadays doesn't have to be woke because for the most part they're growing up in a culture of acceptance and equity. It's mostly older people who balk at being asked to change how they've acted/spoke in the past. Then they label being asked to be considerate and thoughtful something like Woke and demonize the term.
      If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

      Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
      Martin Luther King, Jr.

      Comment

      • #18
        Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
        Very astute, the current generation of kids nowadays doesn't have to be woke because for the most part they're growing up in a culture of acceptance and equity.
        This is the basis of my hope for the future. I see it in my kids' generation. Sadly my generation is just embarrassing.

        Comment

        • #19
          Originally posted by Ken View Post
          Why does it seem like " and get off my lawn " belongs at the end here.
          It does? Why?
          "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

          Comment

          • #20
            Originally posted by Ken View Post
            This is the basis of my hope for the future. I see it in my kids' generation. Sadly my generation is just embarrassing.
            Yep, I'm right there with you on this one.
            If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
            Martin Luther King, Jr.

            Comment

            • #21
              Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
              Very astute, the current generation of kids nowadays doesn't have to be woke because for the most part they're growing up in a culture of acceptance and equity. It's mostly older people who balk at being asked to change how they've acted/spoke in the past. Then they label being asked to be considerate and thoughtful something like Woke and demonize the term.



              That is very true. Even with some of my close friends. EVERYTHING the woke crowd deems offensive, isn't offensive. But many fail to make the distinction between truly offensive and offending their point of view.
              "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

              Comment

              • #22
                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                where's the outrage over parents who intentionally hold their kids back in school to allow them that same type of advantage going forward?
                No outrage either way for me personally, I agree that anyone arguing against one should argue both.

                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                FWIW, I would think very few, if any, biological males transition to gain a competitive advantage in women's athletics. Intent means quite a bit from my POV.
                I don't think they do it for a competitive advantage either.

                But once they have done so the question is whether it's "fair" for those with the implicit advantage to compete against those without.

                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                AND the number of actual Trans women competing in women's sports is so small, again--why the outrage?
                No outrage here I was just answering your question on "why the difference" since there's a directional difference when it comes to athletics (the male physiology is advantaged athletically).

                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                If you ban Trans women, where do you stop? Some biological women has quite a bit of testosterone as nature doesn't create identical people.
                Fair question to ask.

                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                Is the outrage REALLY about gaining an advantage? And if so-shouldn't any non natural advantage be the issue?
                I don't know, I'm not outraged

                Comment

                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ken View Post
                  This is the basis of my hope for the future. I see it in my kids' generation. Sadly my generation is just embarrassing.
                  I tell my daughter this all the time.
                  "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                    Exactly--it is a trap. If the concern is an Physical or strength advantage--I'd ask--where's the outrage over parents who intentionally hold their kids back in school to allow them that same type of advantage going forward?

                    FWIW, I would think very few, if any, biological males transition to gain a competitive advantage in women's athletics. Intent means quite a bit from my POV. AND the number of actual Trans women competing in women's sports is so small, again--why the outrage? If you ban Trans women, where do you stop? Some biological women has quite a bit of testosterone as nature doesn't create identical people.

                    Is the outrage REALLY about gaining an advantage? And if so-shouldn't any non natural advantage be the issue?
                    You can stop at a person who is born with a penis.
                    "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ken View Post
                      No outrage either way for me personally, I agree that anyone arguing against one should argue both.



                      I don't think they do it for a competitive advantage either.

                      But once they have done so the question is whether it's "fair" for those with the implicit advantage to compete against those without.



                      No outrage here I was just answering your question on "why the difference" since there's a directional difference when it comes to athletics (the male physiology is advantaged athletically).



                      Fair question to ask.



                      I don't know, I'm not outraged
                      if you thought I was specifically inferring you were/are outraged, I need to be more specific in the future--I wasn't I Know you only get outraged when people mis-represent XFip :P
                      If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                      Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                      Martin Luther King, Jr.

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mithrandir View Post
                        You can stop at a person who is born with a penis.
                        What about the ones both with a Penis AND a Vagina? Do we restrict the dude born with 2 penises because Damn--that's REALLY unfair!
                        If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                        Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                        Martin Luther King, Jr.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                          if you thought I was specifically inferring you were/are outraged, I need to be more specific in the future--I wasn't I Know you only get outraged when people mis-represent XFip :P
                          I didn't think that, it was just my poorly communicated way of agreeing with you on this.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                            What about the ones both with a Penis AND a Vagina? Do we restrict the dude born with 2 penises because Damn--that's REALLY unfair!
                            If you have no legit answer that's fine.
                            "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Allowing a trans female to compete against females is inherently unfair to the females. So why aren't the feelings of the females who are losing to trans females taken into account?

                              We have to allow a trans female to compete against females so their feelings aren't hurt, but tell the females who lost to an unfairly advantaged trans female to just suck it up????
                              "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mithrandir View Post
                                If you have no legit answer that's fine.
                                why is the topic of intersex individuals not "legit"?

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