Which was worse, Trump or Covid?

[Ken]

Ok. I think you are a pretty smart guy. So maybe I am interested in your opinion on the Holocaust, how it started, the events that led up to it, why people didn't stand up against it. So I ask you. But you throw a giant curve at me and state. Oh, I don't believe it ever happened. I would be stunned, but maybe I would like to hear your reasoning. Not because you will change my mind, but because it is so jaw dropping I would want to see where it goes. I would be curious to hear from you how you could possibly come to that conclusion. In the course of conversation I would ask you questions (not in an aggressive or condescending way) I would not call you a moron. I certainly would think you are wrong.

I would then have to ask myself does your ridiculous belief disqualify you from having intelligence on other topics? Do I ignore your baseball posts or fishing posts and write you off as an idiot? Or do I just agree to disagree on this and enjoy the other stuff?

I certainly wouldn't invite you to my friends Seder. But I would invite you to my house after fishing.

I understand your point -- so we've established that Holocaust denial is not a non-starter for you. I know for some that it is, but I see your intent in still respecting the individual, and I know from your history that you are always looking for the good which, in of itself, is a very positive character trait IMO.

However, for some people that kind of statement is so personal and so grotesque that they would not entertain it (nor should they). I think there's a question here of whether we should entertain it as well, even though we have the privilege of it not being a personal issue for you and me, but we can get to that later.

It's an example on a spectrum. Where that example lies on your spectrum from "reasonable normal statement/post" to "gross" is a personal question.

If instead of someone stating "the Holocaust didn't happen", they state "<racial slur>s are inferior to me", do you still "see where it goes"? How about something deeply personal about your family, is that a line we shouldn't cross? Or is there no line to cross? (For me there is, there's no redeeming qualities in question in some cases, but perhaps there's not one for you).

If there indeed is a line, then we are just arguing where it is. If you are saying that there is no line, I'd just disagree -- I'd question why we should entertain those type of statements because by entertaining them, even listening to them, I'm giving them much more respect than they deserve, no?

[Ken]

I wasn't gonna answer this hypothetical, but on this point, isn't it hard to say what the impact of a new strain or pandemic would be if it happens under competent leadership and with the knowledge we have learned from this one? Of course, if the choice is 600k dead or Trump again, you hold your nose and pray we don't end up with a Civil War or the end of democracy. But it is impossible for me to separate the devastation of the pandemic for the US from the reality that it was exponentially worse than it might have been with competent leadership. The right leader proactively happening something similar, especially with what he have learned from COVID-19 could stop anything close to what we experienced from happening. Conversely, 4 more years or Trump could lead to a Civil War and the end of our democracy.

If you are focusing on what did happen as opposed to what would happen, I just do not know how to separate Trump from his pandemic response. He absolutely made the pandemic worse through his lies and denials. I am certain hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved in this country with exceptional leadership, rather than a leader who denied and denied while people died.

This is the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this question too.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I understand your point -- so we've established that Holocaust denial is not a non-starter for you. I know for some that it is, but I see your intent in still respecting the individual, and I know from your history that you are always looking for the good which, in of itself, is a very positive character trait IMO.

However, for some people that kind of statement is so personal and so grotesque that they would not entertain it (nor should they). I think there's a question here of whether we should entertain it as well, even though we have the privilege of it not being a personal issue for you and me, but we can get to that later.

It's an example on a spectrum. Where that example lies on your spectrum from "reasonable normal statement/post" to "gross" is a personal question.

If instead of someone stating "the Holocaust didn't happen", they state "<racial slur>s are inferior to me", do you still "see where it goes"? How about something deeply personal about your family, is that a line we shouldn't cross? Or is there no line to cross? (For me there is, there's no redeeming qualities in question in some cases, but perhaps there's not one for you).

If there indeed is a line, then we are just arguing where it is. If you are saying that there is no line, I'd just disagree -- I'd question why we should entertain those type of statements because by entertaining them, even listening to them, I'm giving them much more respect than they deserve, no?

This is an interesting discussion to have on it's own merits. The entire free speech, thought police, deal breaker conundrum. It is indeed a personal choice in every aspect, but as history has shown, those choices can sometimes have consequences outside your own personal sphere of influence.

PS. Off topic and irrelevant, but I think, Ken, you're the only person I know that uses the word 'gross'. It always stands out in your posts when you use it, no idea why--LOL.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I wasn't gonna answer this hypothetical, but on this point, isn't it hard to say what the impact of a new strain or pandemic would be if it happens under competent leadership and with the knowledge we have learned from this one? Of course, if the choice is 600k dead or Trump again, you hold your nose and pray we don't end up with a Civil War or the end of democracy. But it is impossible for me to separate the devastation of the pandemic for the US from the reality that it was exponentially worse than it might have been with competent leadership. The right leader proactively happening something similar, especially with what he have learned from COVID-19 could stop anything close to what we experienced from happening. Conversely, 4 more years or Trump could lead to a Civil War and the end of our democracy.

If you are focusing on what did happen as opposed to what would happen, I just do not know how to separate Trump from his pandemic response. He absolutely made the pandemic worse through his lies and denials. I am certain hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved in this country with exceptional leadership, rather than a leader who denied and denied while people died.

This is a great post, I've been thinking about responding, but this is quite a bit how I feel. To me, there really can't be an either/or choice as the Devastation of Covid was directly impacted by Trump.

Thanks SM.

[heyelander]

This is the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this question too.

I think that well is poisoned now though. There will be the same fight next time, regardless of leadership. We went from a fringe minority of anti-vaxers and conspiracy theorists, to 40% of the country. I don't see that changing for a while.

[heyelander]

However, for some people that kind of statement is so personal and so grotesque that they would not entertain it (nor should they). I think there's a question here of whether we should entertain it as well, even though we have the privilege of it not being a personal issue for you and me, but we can get to that later.

This is the truth though, right? I can patronize and laugh at this sort of shit (even make jokes) because it never affected me. I can see that person (if I put on rose colored glasses) as outside the box thinker or just clown rather than the existential threat to my life that they are to others.

[heyelander]

If there indeed is a line, then we are just arguing where it is. If you are saying that there is no line, I'd just disagree -- I'd question why we should entertain those type of statements because by entertaining them, even listening to them, I'm giving them much more respect than they deserve, no?

I'm always shocked into silence and wonder what sort of vibe I was giving off that someone felt at ease saying this shit to me. My guess is middle-aged white guy.

[Ken]

PS. Off topic and irrelevant, but I think, Ken, you're the only person I know that uses the word 'gross'. It always stands out in your posts when you use it, no idea why--LOL.

I can't take full credit, I stole it from someone. I wish I could remember who.

But if it's standing out then that was the intent

[Ken]

I'm always shocked into silence and wonder what sort of vibe I was giving off that someone felt at ease saying this shit to me. My guess is middle-aged white guy.

Yeah, I agree, it sucks that the assumption now is that if you are middle aged white guy you are one of the bumbling, drooling, Trump mouthbreathers.

Sadly we still have it better than the assumptions towards minorities.

People just suck.

[umjewman]

Yeah, I agree, it sucks that the assumption now is that if you are middle aged white guy you are one of the bumbling, drooling, Trump mouthbreathers.

Sadly we still have it better than the assumptions towards minorities.

People just suck.

I've met heye. He may not be a Trump mouthbreather, but bumbling and drooling fits the bill.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I've met heye. He may not be a Trump mouthbreather, but bumbling and drooling fits the bill.

That's all of us after some Apricot Soju.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I wasn't gonna answer this hypothetical, but on this point, isn't it hard to say what the impact of a new strain or pandemic would be if it happens under competent leadership and with the knowledge we have learned from this one? Of course, if the choice is 600k dead or Trump again, you hold your nose and pray we don't end up with a Civil War or the end of democracy. But it is impossible for me to separate the devastation of the pandemic for the US from the reality that it was exponentially worse than it might have been with competent leadership. The right leader proactively happening something similar, especially with what he have learned from COVID-19 could stop anything close to what we experienced from happening. Conversely, 4 more years or Trump could lead to a Civil War and the end of our democracy.

If you are focusing on what did happen as opposed to what would happen, I just do not know how to separate Trump from his pandemic response. He absolutely made the pandemic worse through his lies and denials. I am certain hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved in this country with exceptional leadership, rather than a leader who denied and denied while people died.

These are all good points. I sort of struggled around them or avoided them in what I wrote, but you got to the heart of the matter a lot clearer than I did.

I do wonder how much a different president could have done. Trump obviously made things worse in the U.S. with the pandemic. But also it just took a while for people to realize that the primary mode of transmission was airborne. I don't think even with a competent president we would have all been wearing masks in indoor settings in March 2020. At that point the wave that took so many lives in New York and New Jersey was probably inevitable. But could the subsequent waves in summer 2020 and over the winter have been prevented or the impact lessened? Probably so. Would the vaccine have been developed any faster or distributed any better? Probably not to any great extent. Would more people have taken the vaccine this spring and summer if Trump/GOP hadn't turned it into a political question? Yes, I think so. It's hard to disentangle all of that.

[heyelander]

I've met heye. He may not be a Trump mouthbreather, but bumbling and drooling fits the bill.

you weren't even at the RJ get together where I showed up with no money because I had lost my wallet the night before.

[chancellor]

That's all of us after some Apricot Soju.

After the Kohminator's experience, I have no interest in testing the theory at all.

[GwynnInTheHall]

After the Kohminator's experience, I have no interest in testing the theory at all.

He's pretty funny on Beer too....