Which was worse, Trump or Covid?

[Pauly]

Trump or the dismantling of the Marlins World Series teams immediately after winning?

Flags fly forever

[heyelander]

Sort of --- it's be more like asking what is worse, the eruption of Vesuvius that killed hundreds of thousands or the corrupt, pathological liar who did everything in his power to convince the people of Pompeii that a volcanic eruption just wasn't that big of a deal, leading to tens of thousands (or more) unnecessary deaths (among many, many, many, many, many, many other acts of depravity, corruption, and anti-democratic action). I mean, volcanoes (and viruses) don't have intentions, so....

there's a difference between worse morally and worse empirically though, eh?

[GwynnInTheHall]

A shit stirring thread that I didn't start?--I call BS.

[Bene Futuis]

there's a difference between worse morally and worse empirically though, eh?

Yeah, it's hard to compare the two. I guess my version of "worse" bakes in intent, similar to the law.

[chancellor]

Trump or the dismantling of the Marlins World Series teams immediately after winning?

One thing I admire about you is your rapid, skilled, near-immediate groin shots.

[GwynnInTheHall]

One thing I admire about you is your rapid, skilled, near-immediate groin shots.

Meh, Art already mentioned the low blows...

[umjewman]

One thing I admire about you is your rapid, skilled, near-immediate groin shots.

I'm a Mets fan, I have more experience than I would like in groin shots.

[Gregg]

You bring up an interesting point here but I'm not sure it's so clear cut.

The post he was responding to called someone a "c**t". Much of the rest of the post could be interpreted in a similar tone depending on your perspective (or you could agree with it, I don't know). But what line do we draw where the ridiculous/absurd/grotesque/inappropriate is pushed back on? Hypothetically (using these to explain a point, not compare to this post so don't start... ) if someone instead threw out a racial slur is that ok? Note that racial slurs have been used on this board, so it's not all that hypothetical. What if someone denied the existence of the holocaust - is that just an opinion too? I'm pretty sure we all have our lines, and it isn't just a question about "giving an opinion". I think it's fair to push back, no? Asking this for your response, not a hypothetical.

Ok. I think you are a pretty smart guy. So maybe I am interested in your opinion on the Holocaust, how it started, the events that led up to it, why people didn't stand up against it. So I ask you. But you throw a giant curve at me and state. Oh, I don't believe it ever happened. I would be stunned, but maybe I would like to hear your reasoning. Not because you will change my mind, but because it is so jaw dropping I would want to see where it goes. I would be curious to hear from you how you could possibly come to that conclusion. In the course of conversation I would ask you questions (not in an aggressive or condescending way) I would not call you a moron. I certainly would think you are wrong.

I would then have to ask myself does your ridiculous belief disqualify you from having intelligence on other topics? Do I ignore your baseball posts or fishing posts and write you off as an idiot? Or do I just agree to disagree on this and enjoy the other stuff?

I certainly wouldn't invite you to my friends Seder. But I would invite you to my house after fishing.

[Mithrandir]

Ok. I think you are a pretty smart guy. So maybe I am interested in your opinion on the Holocaust, how it started, the events that led up to it, why people didn't stand up against it. So I ask you. But you throw a giant curve at me and state. Oh, I don't believe it ever happened. I would be stunned, but maybe I would like to hear your reasoning. Not because you will change my mind, but because it is so jaw dropping I would want to see where it goes. I would be curious to hear from you how you could possibly come to that conclusion. In the course of conversation I would ask you questions (not in an aggressive or condescending way) I would not call you a moron. I certainly would think you are wrong.

I would then have to ask myself does your ridiculous belief disqualify you from having intelligence on other topics? Do I ignore your baseball posts or fishing posts and write you off as an idiot? Or do I just agree to disagree on this and enjoy the other stuff?

I certainly wouldn't invite you to my friends Seder. But I would invite you to my house after fishing.

Using the Holocaust denial. I know people that deny it ever happened. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with them. Are they idiots in the intelligence sense? Maybe not, but something is wrong with their character. Given their lack of character, I would choose not to associate with them. Anything that they could talk about or give advice on, I'm sure that I could find other people to provide the same information.

Hence I would not go fishing with them. Or invite them over to my house.

[heyelander]

yeah, I could spend 20 minutes with that dude at a party listening to their lunacy for shits and giggles, but I'm not going to be alone on a boat with them.

[Kevin Seitzer]

COVID has caused upwards of 600,000 excess deaths in the United States and millions more around the world. It's pretty hard to top that kind of devastation. Nothing that Trump personally or the Trump/GOP phenomenon more generally has done anywhere approaches that in the short term. I do believe that the Trump phenomenon has greatly contributed to the empowerment of white supremacist and xenophobic/nationalist movements in the United States and around the world and to great jeopardy to and degradation of our political institutions. It may be that in the long run that proves the greater damage. Whereas the current pandemic spurred the development of the mRNA technology that may end up saving many more lives against all sorts of diseases. But in the short term, as bad as Trump was, COVID was worse by far.

[umjewman]

yeah, I could spend 20 minutes with that dude at a party listening to their lunacy for shits and giggles, but I'm not going to be alone on a boat with them.

And as a Jew, I am DEFINITELY not going to be alone on a boat with that person.

[heyelander]

And as a Jew, I am DEFINITELY not going to be alone on a boat with that person.

not for long at least...

too soon?

[Sour Masher]

COVID has caused upwards of 600,000 excess deaths in the United States and millions more around the world. It's pretty hard to top that kind of devastation. Nothing that Trump personally or the Trump/GOP phenomenon more generally has done anywhere approaches that in the short term. I do believe that the Trump phenomenon has greatly contributed to the empowerment of white supremacist and xenophobic/nationalist movements in the United States and around the world and to great jeopardy to and degradation of our political institutions. It may be that in the long run that proves the greater damage. Whereas the current pandemic spurred the development of the mRNA technology that may end up saving many more lives against all sorts of diseases. But in the short term, as bad as Trump was, COVID was worse by far.

I wasn't gonna answer this hypothetical, but on this point, isn't it hard to say what the impact of a new strain or pandemic would be if it happens under competent leadership and with the knowledge we have learned from this one? Of course, if the choice is 600k dead or Trump again, you hold your nose and pray we don't end up with a Civil War or the end of democracy. But it is impossible for me to separate the devastation of the pandemic for the US from the reality that it was exponentially worse than it might have been with competent leadership. The right leader proactively happening something similar, especially with what he have learned from COVID-19 could stop anything close to what we experienced from happening. Conversely, 4 more years or Trump could lead to a Civil War and the end of our democracy.

If you are focusing on what did happen as opposed to what would happen, I just do not know how to separate Trump from his pandemic response. He absolutely made the pandemic worse through his lies and denials. I am certain hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved in this country with exceptional leadership, rather than a leader who denied and denied while people died.

[Sour Masher]

not for long at least...

too soon?

The set up was impossible to ignore. You had to do it.