Vegetarian

[Bene Futuis]

I am a meat eater but I find it very hard to morally justify eating meat (so I'm a hypocrite, pretty much). Red meat is a class 2A carcinogen (‘probably carcinogenic to humans’). Processed meat is class 1 (have fun with your cancer, grody meat eater guy). You can get by just fine without ever eating meat of any kind ever. Plus you have to kill something in order to eat meat and often the method of ranching/storing/killing is unbelievably brutal. So what the hell are we (am I) doing eating so much damn meat? I mean, it's tasty but....

[Sour Masher]

This should be a fun role reversal game, as I was a vegetarian for over 20 years, and still am by some more permissive definitions--I eat 4 brainless bivalves (oysters, clams, mussels, and scallops) that are sustainable, have a relatively low impact on the environment, and provide about a week's work of B vitamins in one serving, something I felt was missing from my diet for a long time.

But I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here, even though I very much agree that more people should be eating less animals, and I think we will all eventually get there out of necessity.

When I started, it was something I did for a girl. My first college girlfriend, who was incredibly hot (out of my league). Me eating meat in front of her was a turn off, so I didn't do it. And I started thinking about it and I decided to stay a vegetarian even after we broke up and I stuck with it. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be, especially once I left the diligent/militant phase of checking the back of every food product I ever brought to see if it had any animal products. After awhile, you get a sense of what to avoid, and overall, I found it easier and more comfortable for me if I just ate how I felt was ethical, generally, without being the guy that everyone has to work around to pick a restaurant for. I never advertised my food preferences unless asked, and I went out of my way not to be that guy who is preaching to everyone about my moral superiority. If someone I did not know well did me the kindness of giving me food that wasn't obviously and mainly meat, I ate it. But when I bought food for myself or prepped it, I tried to keep it meat free.

One reason I took that stance, is once you go down the rabbit hole, you realize that it is a lot more complicated and messy than most veggies would have you believe. All you can do is get close to the ideal anyway, so stressing oneself or others about it is a net negative.

1. On health--I was healthier when I ate meat than when I stopped, for many years. That is my fault, as I switched from eating a balanced diet to thinking it was a win for me and the world if I just didn't eat meat. That meant I ate entirely too many carbs and entirely too little protein. Of course, that is on me, but it does highlight that a vegetarian diet is not necessarily a healthier diet. You have to work at it to be. A moderate meat eater can have a healthier diet than a vegetarian clueless about nutrition that only cares about not eating meat. Protein and B vitamins in particular are things you have to be mindful of, especially if you are a vegan.

2. On the environment--the more research I did, the more complicated the environmental impact of meat eating became. Yes, the whole 20 gallons of water for a pound of beef vs 1 for a pound of grain, blah, blah, blah. It is true that, in general, meat eating is more resource intensive than non-meat eating. But I love almonds, and drink almond milk, and they contribute to droughts in California. I consume products with oil derived from harvesting processes that kill many bugs and animals, waste resources, and encourage the destruction of native habitats. There are dozens of specific examples I could give of this. So, not all veggie eating is pure and clean or even better than some meat eating. There are many examples of the veggie you buy in the store being worse for the planet than the deer your neighbor went and killed on a hunt, for instance.

3. On ethics--as I just touched on, while many veggies choose that path to limit the suffering of animals, most still eat things that cause the death of animals, one way or another (through loss of habitat to plan crops, or pest control, etc).

The bottom line is that this issue is not is a binary. It is not a clear case of good vs bad, and anyone who tells you it is, has not done the research on it and really thought about how everything connects.

[Sour Masher]

But all that said, the world would be a better place if folks ate less meat, and stopped thinking of meat (rather than protein) as an essential part of every meal. Also, meat alternatives have come a long way from back when I started. Finally, one could make the case that oysters in particular are essentially a plant in that they are non-motive and do not have brains or central nervous systems, and eat just a few a week essentially solves the main issues vegans in particular have, which is a lack of B vitamins in their diet (in fact, there are not many vegans who eat them and still call themselves vegans). It is also another source of protein.

[The Feral Slasher]

But all that said, the world would be a better place if folks ate less meat, and stopped thinking of meat (rather than protein) as an essential part of every meal. Also, meat alternatives have come a long way from back when I started. Finally, one could make the case that oysters in particular are essentially a plant in that they are non-motive and do not have brains or central nervous systems, and eat just a few a week essentially solves the main issues vegans in particular have, which is a lack of B vitamins in their diet (in fact, there are not many vegans who eat them and still call themselves vegans). It is also another source of protein.

my youngest daughter became a vegetarian (except the occasional chicken nuggets, but no one heard me say that) a couple years ago. I've tried to cut back on meat and only have red meat maybe two or three times a month. I try to avoid pork as well, and focus on chicken and seafood. Bacon is tough to give up completely, as is steak, but I only have them maybe once a month. I love your pitch for Oysters, ha ha.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Well for me, it's because I love pudding.

[Sour Masher]

my youngest daughter became a vegetarian (except the occasional chicken nuggets, but no one heard me say that) a couple years ago. I've tried to cut back on meat and only have red meat maybe two or three times a month. I try to avoid pork as well, and focus on chicken and seafood. Bacon is tough to give up completely, as is steak, but I only have them maybe once a month. I love your pitch for Oysters, ha ha.

I'm not the first to make the oyster pitch. Peter Singer is a famous philosopher and long time vegan activist. He was one of the first to put forth the idea that ethically and environmentally, eating oysters didn't count as eating meat. They are basically plants in all the ways that matter to vegans, though many see eating them as a slippery slope (they are slippery raw, I am told...I couldn't stomach trying them that way).

The amount of B vitamins in bivalves is mindboggling. If one believed in intelligent design (this one does not), it would be easy to think that they were put her precisely to solve for a vegan diet. You eat 3 oz of oysters, clams, or mussels a week, and you have no worries. Lack of B vitamins is the most challenging thing about being strictly vegan and they solve for it by having by far the most B vitamins of anything you can eat.

[The Feral Slasher]

I'm not the first to make the oyster pitch. Peter Singer is a famous philosopher and long time vegan activist. He was one of the first to put forth the idea that ethically and environmentally, eating oysters didn't count as eating meat. They are basically plants in all the ways that matter to vegans, though many see eating them as a slippery slope (they are slippery raw, I am told...I couldn't stomach trying them that way).

raw with lemon and/or tabasco. yummy

[GwynnInTheHall]

raw with lemon and/or tabasco. yummy

This.

[The Feral Slasher]

Well for me, it's because I love pudding.

how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat ?

[Sour Masher]

how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat ?

That is one of those lines that stick with me so much, I think of it pretty much every time I see or hear about pudding.

And you guys have me tempted to try brainless, nerveless, non-motive, so basically plants, on the half shell with Tabasco and lemon. They are good in a Thanksgiving dressing too.

[chancellor]

This.

Rockefeller. Only way other than Oyster stew that I can eat them.

Lionfish should be included, too. Save the Caribbean seafood, eat a lionfish. And they're super yummy.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Rockefeller. Only way other than Oyster stew that I can eat them.

Lionfish should be included, too. Save the Caribbean seafood, eat a lionfish. And they're super yummy.

I had never tried Oysters before moving to Vegas, food can be exceptional there--tried Rockefeller but found raw with some pico de gallo is really good. Hard to get in some places so, hot sauce and lemon is a nice substitute.

[chancellor]

I had never tried Oysters before moving to Vegas, food can be exceptional there--tried Rockefeller but found raw with some pico de gallo is really good. Hard to get in some places so, hot sauce and lemon is a nice substitute.

Agree with you on Vegas food - one of the best meals I've ever had was off the strip at The Cannery on the north side. Two buddies and I working in town pooled two days of per diems (about $400), and went on a 20-hour beer, food, blackjack, and roulette day that's still unmatched in my lifetime. We had a crab stuffed filet at the MGM that was so good I almost cried.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Agree with you on Vegas food - one of the best meals I've ever had was off the strip at The Cannery on the north side. Two buddies and I working in town pooled two days of per diems (about $400), and went on a 20-hour beer, food, blackjack, and roulette day that's still unmatched in my lifetime. We had a crab stuffed filet at the MGM that was so good I almost cried.

When Ray came into town (Don Quixote) he, Pam and I went to Meat Bazar at the now defunct SLS. Dropped 1K *Ray did, but it was some of the best food I'd ever had. Though you don;t need to spend a ton to find exceptional eats in vegas, ask a local and they can send you somewhere that costs like home, but eats like the Taj.

[Teenwolf]

8 years vegan for me. I echo most of SM's feelings.

Vegan food is often both healthier and less environmentally damaging, but not always. I do feel like a crappy diet without meat is much healthier than a crappy diet with meat. Eliminating or severely reducing risk of colon cancer, heart disease, erectile issues, and much more, that's not nothing.

Also, as the market share held by vegans expands, the food options have become much better to meet the demand.

I'm really happy to see some folks coming around. I would never partake in bivalves, just gross to me. But I don't find any ethical dilemma. Are they really such clean things to ingest though with the environmental state of our waters? I dunno, everything kills you, just at different rates.

I found a really enjoyable read about staying healthy while going vegan that was geared towards men. It was called Eating Meat Is For Pussies. I enjoy the thoughtful reads too, but this one helped with understanding the health impact. Also thought the documentary on Netflix with Arnold was very well done. The boner test was particularly hard evidence in favor of a vegan diet.