Oregon legalizes all drugs

[GwynnInTheHall]

It will be interesting to see if drug related deaths go up in the next couple of years.

It will be interesting to see how many drug addicts will flock to Oregon to use freely.

It will be interesting to how much will crime rise in Oregon in the next couple of years.

I am someone who is considered to be in long term recovery and work daily to help people in need of recovery or stay in a recovery lifestyle. I do not do this as a profession.

First, if I remember correctly, yours is not a substance addition. Not saying it isn't as important, but there are different issues substance based addiction bring to the table that other addictions do not.

Second (and more importantly) Why are you only focusing on the negative aspect of this?

[Gregg]

First, if I remember correctly, yours is not a substance addition. Not saying it isn't as important, but there are different issues substance based addiction bring to the table that other addictions do not.

Second (and more importantly) Why are you only focusing on the negative aspect of this?

You are not remembering it correctly. Alcoholic, drug addict, then gambling. Some others thrown in for good measure.

I help alcoholics and drug addicts way more than gamblers. Funny thing though, gambling produces the same chemical in the brain as cocaine does.

Negative...not so sure about that. Still only about 7% of drug addicts and alcoholics get to and maintain long term sobriety.

[chancellor]

Second (and more importantly) Why are you only focusing on the negative aspect of this?

I get what you're saying, but the type of data Gregg's asking about is the type of data we should get. Termed in a different way, though, I think it's smart to ask and investigate:

- What are drug related deaths in 2018/2019/2020 versus 2021/2022/2023?
- Does the number of drug users increase or decrease over the same time period?
- Does the number in rehab increase or decrease over the same time period?
- Per above, perhaps by drug type.
- Crime rate change over same time period? Do such changes concentrate in urban versus rural areas? Do such changes appear to correlate to drug users increase/decrease over same time period?
- Does the rate of medical conditions correlated to drug use change? HIV, for example.

I'm sure there's many others. But we can't be afraid to ask and research some of the tough questions, even if they give outcomes that aren't liked. Gregg indirectly brings up one of my concerns - let's say Portland gets an influx of users that overwhelms their rehab system. And let's assume the State of Oregon does an overall good job in increasing rehab space, but they still get slammed enough to overwhelm their system. That could lead to a perceived failure - but, yet, if there's a lot more net people in rehab, it's a good thing overall.

[Bene Futuis]

Based on my experience with Portland, having lived there and been there a bunch, the heroin/opioid population was already packed to capacity before any of these changes. Getting rehab systems packed to capacity would be a very, very good thing for Oregon, imo.

[GwynnInTheHall]

You are not remembering it correctly. Alcoholic, drug addict, then gambling. Some others thrown in for good measure.

I help alcoholics and drug addicts way more than gamblers. Funny thing though, gambling produces the same chemical in the brain as cocaine does.

Negative...not so sure about that. Still only about 7% of drug addicts and alcoholics get to and maintain long term sobriety.

I applaud your work and sobriety, mine is only gambling. And I know that working with addicts is tough, but 7% in these times when addicts are vilified by society whom also helps create and enable them--is a good start. If MORE addicts thought they could get help and not go to jail, when there is a light rather than an abyss, then that 7% might get better.

I subscribe to the--save as many as you can, theory and I'm keenly aware that we can't save everyone--keenly.

However you DO pose the negatives quite a bit when you don't really agree with something. IE Why not pose the question as such:

It will be interesting to see if drug related deaths go DOWN in the next couple of years.

It will be interesting to see how many drug addicts will flock to Oregon to GET HELP.

It will be interesting to how much will crime GO DOWN in Oregon in the next couple of years.

Can you see the difference, you're coming at this from a POV that it's a failing proposition and your questions only serve as confirmation bias.

That's all I'm pointing out--not that you have no right to your opinion, just that it's negative.

If I'm missing something please explain what that might be.

Again, keep up the good work, I know how hard it is.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I get what you're saying, but the type of data Gregg's asking about is the type of data we should get. Termed in a different way, though, I think it's smart to ask and investigate:

- What are drug related deaths in 2018/2019/2020 versus 2021/2022/2023?
- Does the number of drug users increase or decrease over the same time period?
- Does the number in rehab increase or decrease over the same time period?
- Per above, perhaps by drug type.
- Crime rate change over same time period? Do such changes concentrate in urban versus rural areas? Do such changes appear to correlate to drug users increase/decrease over same time period?
- Does the rate of medical conditions correlated to drug use change? HIV, for example.

I'm sure there's many others. But we can't be afraid to ask and research some of the tough questions, even if they give outcomes that aren't liked. Gregg indirectly brings up one of my concerns - let's say Portland gets an influx of users that overwhelms their rehab system. And let's assume the State of Oregon does an overall good job in increasing rehab space, but they still get slammed enough to overwhelm their system. That could lead to a perceived failure - but, yet, if there's a lot more net people in rehab, it's a good thing overall.

THESE are requests for information, not opinions disguised as questions looking for confirmation bias.

[chancellor]

Based on my experience with Portland, having lived there and been there a bunch, the heroin/opioid population was already packed to capacity before any of these changes. Getting rehab systems packed to capacity would be a very, very good thing for Oregon, imo.

Agree completely. Haven't lived there, but like you, been there a bunch for work.

[Kevin Seitzer]

This is one part of a system that is broken in many places. Our prison system focuses on revenge and punishment rather than rehabilitation. We have for-profit prisons that have completely the wrong incentives. We have district attorneys who get reelected by keeping people in jail and sending them to prison rather than doing justice for the community. The war on drugs was ill conceived. Police forces are militarized and shot through with racism. Poverty and unemployment and the hopelessness that can come with them is obviously an influence with multiple causes. So, yeah, fixing one piece may just shift the problems from other places. But I don't think that's a reason not to fix the pieces you can. It is a reason to be careful when measuring the kind of statistics that Gregg and chancellor are suggesting as measuring sticks for this.

[TranaGreg]

one place that this has been tried is Portugal, passing the decriminalization laws back in 2001. Here's an article (long) that describes how it has worked (tl;dr - well ... but it's complicated ....)

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

[Kevin Seitzer]

one place that this has been tried is Portugal, passing the decriminalization laws back in 2001. Here's an article (long) that describes how it has worked (tl;dr - well ... but it's complicated ....)

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

That's a really good article.

I thought this was a poignant summary:

Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal.

“The national policy is to treat each individual differently,” Goulão told me. “The secret is for us to be present.”

[GwynnInTheHall]

Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal.

“The national policy is to treat each individual differently,” Goulão told me. “The secret is for us to be present.”

This is an excellent take.

[GwynnInTheHall]

BTW if you are convicted of ANY drug offense, you lose any and all Federal financial aid and must pay any loans back IN FULL.

Can you see how criminalizing drugs has far reaching negative effects?

[Sour Masher]

You are not remembering it correctly. Alcoholic, drug addict, then gambling. Some others thrown in for good measure.

I help alcoholics and drug addicts way more than gamblers. Funny thing though, gambling produces the same chemical in the brain as cocaine does.

Negative...not so sure about that. Still only about 7% of drug addicts and alcoholics get to and maintain long term sobriety.

If the illegal substances you were addicted to were decriminalized in your state, would you be more temped to relapse? Do you think others might be? If treatments to help overcome addiction were more available in your state, do you think more would use them? Would more recover and more quickly with prevention and punishment were replaced by education and recovery?

Also, do you have any general advice on what to tell an addict who keeps relapsing? My best friend from high school keeps relapsing and if he does it again, his wife will leave him (she ironically got him hooked on coke to begin with, but she, apparently, can use it in moderation and seems able to stop, without abusing it like he does). I've recommended positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, he has a sponsor, and calls me too sometimes to get talked down, when he wants to be talked down. He understands the consequences. Nothing is working long term so far. His longest stretch is right now, I think he is going on 6 weeks, but he seems like he will break soon.

One big concern I have about legalization vs decriminalization of more addictive and destructive drugs (stuff other, than pot) is how increased ease of access could negatively impact those trying to recover. My friend is old school with phone numbers, so memorized their dealer's number. If he had not and deleted and blocked it, he would have no other way to get what he wants. If he was somehow cut off from this one person, he'd be forced into long term recovery, unless he took steps to find another dealer. And as many people I have known that do drugs, that step has always perplexed me. That first step--is it always a casual conversation, an offered drug? It surprises me how many people seem to find a steady supply of drugs, even with it being illegal and dealers getting locked up. I do wonder if it would become much easier to find that supply, it will lead more people to abusing drugs. Though, the net result seems positive based on the results in Portugal.

[GwynnInTheHall]

If the illegal substances you were addicted to were decriminalized in your state, would you be more temped to relapse? Do you think others might be? If treatments to help overcome addiction were more available in your state, do you think more would use them? Would more recover and more quickly with prevention and punishment were replaced by education and recovery?

Also, do you have any general advice on what to tell an addict who keeps relapsing? My best friend from high school keeps relapsing and if he does it again, his wife will leave him (she ironically got him hooked on coke to begin with, but she, apparently, can use it in moderation and seems able to stop, without abusing it like he does). I've recommended positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, he has a sponsor, and calls me too sometimes to get talked down, when he wants to be talked down. He understands the consequences. Nothing is working long term so far. His longest stretch is right now, I think he is going on 6 weeks, but he seems like he will break soon.

One big concern I have about legalization vs decriminalization of more addictive and destructive drugs (stuff other, than pot) is how increased ease of access could negatively impact those trying to recover. My friend is old school with phone numbers, so memorized their dealer's number. If he had not and deleted and blocked it, he would have no other way to get what he wants. If he was somehow cut off from this one person, he'd be forced into long term recovery, unless he took steps to find another dealer. And as many people I have known that do drugs, that step has always perplexed me. That first step--is it always a casual conversation, an offered drug? It surprises me how many people seem to find a steady supply of drugs, even with it being illegal and dealers getting locked up. I do wonder if it would become much easier to find that supply, it will lead more people to abusing drugs. Though, the net result seems positive based on the results in Portugal.

Even if there were a perfect plan, there would still be those who would choose to use or indulge their particular addiction. It's human nature, some can be saved, some cannot--no matter how noble the effort.

[Gregg]

Even if there were a perfect plan, there would still be those who would choose to use or indulge their particular addiction. It's human nature, some can be saved, some cannot--no matter how noble the effort.

Now who is being negative?

Unfortunately I agree with you. We are not being negative it is the reality of addiction.

Sour, I am sorry your friend is in this situation. I do have some thoughts on it. I will respond later today. I have a full work schedule that I have to attend to.