Covid Vaccine thread

[GwynnInTheHall]

I think you are saying something different than I thought you were saying given where this conversation started (which was about how society should handle justice for murderers).

I totally understand the Black Panthers, for instance, believing that being armed prevented a lot of violence from being done against them and their families/friends/neighborhoods. I don't know if it was good or not, but it's at least understandable. If that's where you are going with this, then I can relate to that a lot better than the idea of widespread vigilante revenge killings and summary lynchings being a good idea for society.

There have been a few times in my life when I was angry enough at someone to kill them. I am thankful that in all those situations I did not have that opportunity in front of me. I would have been grossly out of line to employ violence in any of them, and I realized that when I cooled down. In the last ten years or so, I've finally started dealing with some of the roots of that anger in my life to the point where I believe I'm making better and healthier emotional choices. I think what heyelander said is spot on--eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth doesn't result in justice, it just means everyone is blind and toothless because the violence keeps escalating. Rational, circumscribed use of violence is a myth (or a Mith?). Maybe you're a healthier and more emotionally controlled person than I am, but I haven't seen evidence of that on this board. It's true I don't know all of you, and you don't know all of me, but unless you're completely playing a troll act here for however many years, I do think I know something about you. I wouldn't trust you in the role you're suggesting because I wouldn't trust myself. I wouldn't trust myself in that role, not because I think I'm a Gandhi, but because I know I'm not because I've lived with myself for 48 years.

Maybe not Gandhi, but you're pretty rational and calm, very B Fly if that's a word...

I'd say you should know this about me from this board. I can be arrogant, I can be vitriolic, argumentative, somewhat of a dick--But I am honest and fair and accountable. I try, initially, to use reason in all my posts, but if that doesn't work I move up (down?) the chain of intensity until I get my point across and if I feel I'm right--I won't that's acknowledged--I hate the--we can agree to disagree shit. Some things are indeed right/wrong. black/white. And yes, so much more is grey or debatable, but some is not. Every flame war I've been in on this board did not just jump into the fire, it moved there gradually. Could I have de-escalated it, yes I could have made that choice--Could I have parsed my words better--absolutely. But I made (mostly) conscious choices not to--I say mostly because I have posted while drunk on occasion and though it's no excuse, I do tend to lose ALL my filter when drinking. But I say what I feel and or think and I try my best to accept the consequences of those choices/words.

I like your black panther reference, as we've seen recent examples of Black armed groups marching and NOT being met with LEO aggression, nor armed white militia. Sometimes just carrying the big stick can be a deterrent, but you must be prepared to use it if necessary.

Now, I've never been so angry I've felt the urge to respond violently--that might seem strange given some of my outburst in here. But it's true, for some reason I never find myself in a confrontational situation in real life. I don't know why not--I'm not a timid person in public, I do speak my mind, I just find people to be more reasonable in person. My wife seems to think i intimidate some folks, which is strange if true as I have been a skinny dork most of my life (now, a not so skinny dork) Even when I've met people from this forum that I don't agree with, there's never been close to a confrontation--Ask Chance, Bhob or even Ken--All those meetings were preceded with some pretty vitriolic conversations/threats. Maybe they were just being polite, but I think it's because IRL I'm not the acerbic asshat I can be on this forum.

I know I'll never agree with everything you say, think or how you live and I shouldn't because I'm not you, haven't lived your life, but my experience with others whom I consider friends and who have diametrically opposed ides of how things are/should be tells me if we ever met and talked, we'd enjoy the chat.

As for the original intent of this conversation. I'm very eye for an eye/some people need a kick in the butt kind of guy. So I will assume we approach this subject from differing mindsets. I don't think it's unreasonable nor irrational to want a guy who murders someone to suffer the same fate, nor believe that if it goes to court he might get off on some technicality and so the desire to see justice done. I've posted that if I witnessed the incident myself and it was MY--I would take it into my own hands, that may be slightly different than Mith's intent--be it's close enough to merit similar response from those who disagree.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and listen to me blather.

[chancellor]

I'm friends with a guy who use to be a public defender. His thoughts were that 90% of people who kill someone aren't really a threat to society.

Hmmm...I'd venture to say the data on recidivism by violent criminals does not support his conclusion.

[Sour Masher]

Hmmm...I'd venture to say the data on recidivism by violent criminals does not support his conclusion.

While I agree, is there much data on recidivism for murder?

[heyelander]

Hmmm...I'd venture to say the data on recidivism by violent criminals does not support his conclusion.

Is that nature or nurture though? Are they just evil people?

How's incarceration and punishment working out for us? Does your data support continuing then?

[GwynnInTheHall]

While I agree, is there much data on recidivism for murder?

No, police unions keep that data private...

[GwynnInTheHall]

Is that nature or nurture though? Are they just evil people?

I'd suggest watching Trading Places.

[chancellor]

While I agree, is there much data on recidivism for murder?

There's some. Murder, in general, has a lower to much lower recidivism rate, but most convicted have been sent back out into society after lengthy to very lengthy jail terms. Given the recidivism rate for other violent criminals, though with lesser crimes/lesser sentences, I'd like to not test the theory that a lesser sentence for murderers would result in the same recidivism rate as longer incarcerated murderers. But that's me.

[chancellor]

Is that nature or nurture though? Are they just evil people?

How's incarceration and punishment working out for us? Does your data support continuing then?

I fall into the category of favoring much lower incarceration/punishment rates for lesser offenses, like drug crimes. In fact, I think most drug crimes should be, at worst, civil offenses. But once the line is crossed of truly violent crime - felony assault, rape, murder, sex trafficking as a few examples, yeah, I want them in jail for a loooooooong time.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Maybe not Gandhi, but you're pretty rational and calm, very B Fly if that's a word...

I'd say you should know this about me from this board. I can be arrogant, I can be vitriolic, argumentative, somewhat of a dick--But I am honest and fair and accountable. I try, initially, to use reason in all my posts, but if that doesn't work I move up (down?) the chain of intensity until I get my point across and if I feel I'm right--I won't that's acknowledged--I hate the--we can agree to disagree shit. Some things are indeed right/wrong. black/white. And yes, so much more is grey or debatable, but some is not. Every flame war I've been in on this board did not just jump into the fire, it moved there gradually. Could I have de-escalated it, yes I could have made that choice--Could I have parsed my words better--absolutely. But I made (mostly) conscious choices not to--I say mostly because I have posted while drunk on occasion and though it's no excuse, I do tend to lose ALL my filter when drinking. But I say what I feel and or think and I try my best to accept the consequences of those choices/words.

I like your black panther reference, as we've seen recent examples of Black armed groups marching and NOT being met with LEO aggression, nor armed white militia. Sometimes just carrying the big stick can be a deterrent, but you must be prepared to use it if necessary.

Now, I've never been so angry I've felt the urge to respond violently--that might seem strange given some of my outburst in here. But it's true, for some reason I never find myself in a confrontational situation in real life. I don't know why not--I'm not a timid person in public, I do speak my mind, I just find people to be more reasonable in person. My wife seems to think i intimidate some folks, which is strange if true as I have been a skinny dork most of my life (now, a not so skinny dork) Even when I've met people from this forum that I don't agree with, there's never been close to a confrontation--Ask Chance, Bhob or even Ken--All those meetings were preceded with some pretty vitriolic conversations/threats. Maybe they were just being polite, but I think it's because IRL I'm not the acerbic asshat I can be on this forum.

I know I'll never agree with everything you say, think or how you live and I shouldn't because I'm not you, haven't lived your life, but my experience with others whom I consider friends and who have diametrically opposed ides of how things are/should be tells me if we ever met and talked, we'd enjoy the chat.

As for the original intent of this conversation. I'm very eye for an eye/some people need a kick in the butt kind of guy. So I will assume we approach this subject from differing mindsets. I don't think it's unreasonable nor irrational to want a guy who murders someone to suffer the same fate, nor believe that if it goes to court he might get off on some technicality and so the desire to see justice done. I've posted that if I witnessed the incident myself and it was MY--I would take it into my own hands, that may be slightly different than Mith's intent--be it's close enough to merit similar response from those who disagree.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and listen to me blather.

I appreciate the response.

Edit to add: When I was younger, I was very much in the camp that likes to sweep uncomfortable/evil/scary/etc. things under the rug. Hence the anger issues that I had to deal with later in life. I am very much in agreement with you that it's better to deal with it than just pretend to accept it. Assuming it's actually worth fighting over and not just something trivial. I'm not sure I agree that violence is a good way to deal with things. I don't think it's usually the best way, maybe ever. But sometimes it's better than not dealing with it at all?

[Kevin Seitzer]

I'd suggest watching Trading Places.

Is that the show that nakedricci and BatsMeow were on?

[GwynnInTheHall]

I appreciate the response.

Edit to add: When I was younger, I was very much in the camp that likes to sweep uncomfortable/evil/scary/etc. things under the rug. Hence the anger issues that I had to deal with later in life. I am very much in agreement with you that it's better to deal with it than just pretend to accept it. Assuming it's actually worth fighting over and not just something trivial. I'm not sure I agree that violence is a good way to deal with things. I don't think it's usually the best way, maybe ever. But sometimes it's better than not dealing with it at all?

I learned to vent after my father died at an early age from a massive coronary, one of the contributing factors was that he kept all his stress, frustration and anger inside. So far so good, no Cardio issues to date for me. I absolutely agree that Violence isn't the best way to resolve things, nor should it be the first choice, but I believe (and no one has to share this belief) that it sometimes is the ONLY way to resolve things.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Is that the show that nakedricci and BatsMeow were on?

That was Wife Swap, I was speaking of the Nature Nurture argument in the Movie with Dan Ackroyd and Eddie Murphy.

[Ken]

Unimportant aside —- gith — For someone who hates the idea of “agree to disagree” it seems like you say “no one has to share this belief” a lot. Aren’t those similar concepts if not identical?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Unimportant aside —- gith — For someone who hates the idea of “agree to disagree” it seems like you say “no one has to share this belief” a lot. Aren’t those similar concepts if not identical?

You don't have to share my beliefs, everyone has the right to be wrong

Edit: I did say I can be arrogant at times

[heyelander]

You don't have to share my beliefs, everyone has the right to be wrong

Edit: I did say I can be arrogant at times

yeah, usually I just don't care enough to try to correct people. It's not that I'm agreeing to disagree, I just don't care that they go on being incorrect.