Covid Vaccine thread

[GwynnInTheHall]

I disagree. There's now three independent groups that have confirmed from three different areas (Australia, Germany, US) that COVID-19 did not occur naturally. There's supposed to also be a fourth joint Taiwan/Japan study, but I can't find the reference or the peer review for it.

Per the rest, I'd agree with SM's assessment of "compelling circumstantial evidence". While I won't claim to be metaphysically certain, I'm certain that we know the origin - both location and that it's a created, rather than natural occurance.



To quote the great liberal, Ronald Reagan, you must trust but verify.



Not merely politics, but self-serving actions, too. For example, Dr. Fauci's denial of gain-of-function research involvement and funding has been shown to be disingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst.



Nope, I agree. And to your point about politics, I doubt our leadership wants to know more. Take a worst case scenario, and I can guarantee our leadership does not want to be forced down that path. Nor do I.

As to your first and only point of contention. (if I read it right) We will disagree because for every "study" you can point out that states CV-19 was engineered, I can point to one that says it wasn't. Circumstantial evidence isn't empirical and thus why I stated, neither side can "prove" it's theories and good luck finding any peer reviews regarding the origin/genetic construction of CV-19, of the 250ish verified reports/studies/papers, most are from China and very few are about what caused CV-19 in the first place.

As for real "evidence' with China being the only real source of facts and evidence, will we really ever know for sure? Again, I doubt it.


As to Fauci lying, you're assuming that. I had been having this discussion with Pam regarding Gain of Function research and the probabli8lity it was happening in Wuhan, if it was funded by the US and if there was knowledge before the outbreak of said research and who knew if they did know and when. I've found nothing but speculative, really having to stretch it, theories/assertions that there WAS GoF research and which implicates Fauci. But you believe what you'd like to believe, just buy me a beer before we chat about it

Again--I don't think we'll ever know a verifiable truth about CV-19, there's too much at stake for those who created/leaked it if that indeed is the case.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Is it perfect? Absolutely not.

I'm struggling to understand how it's worse than the immediate execution plan though.

In what scenarios, for those accused, is it better to be immediately executed than have due process?

If I witnessed someone intentionally killing/raping/injuring my family I would immediately and summarily dispense my own justice if I was able to. Because I have little faith in our system, not from the intake (Law Enforcement), not in the procedural (lawyers) nor in the Judicial (Judges).

I know, I'm gross.

Does the system work at times--of course, but not often enough for me to trust it to ensure equitable justice for everyone.

[GwynnInTheHall]

The fact that our current system is biased towards those with wealth and power makes you want to remove its protections so that...what? I'm pretty sure that the people getting summarily executed under Mith's and your idea of justice aren't going to be the people you and he want to be executed. The vigilantes you want to empower are not going to place a call to you and Mith to consult on standards of justice before they mete it out. It's going to be the same people getting screwed over by the current system, except under your proposal they have no recourse whatsoever. It's not going to be the rich and powerful getting summarily executed, however much you might wish that to be the outcome.

I don't get this sentiment--people like me are at a point where we will act. If I'd been in the crowd where the guy drove into our protest he'd never have made it out alive. Sure there might have been people there to stop me or those like minded, but I'd certainly have tried to mete out my justice. Same with Rittenhouse et al and yeah, there's a chance I'd be hurt, killed or jailed for doing so and reviled by those who aren't as retributive as I, but that's ok by me. I know who i am, what I believe and that it's not going to go over well with some folks.

As for the anti mask killer, i wouldn't hang him--I'd inject him with CV-19 and let if he survived, he goes free--if not--oh well.

See Mith is actually nicer about than I am.

[Ken]

Does the system work at times--of course, but not often enough for me to trust it to ensure equitable justice for everyone.

Ah, we are talking about completely different things here. By mith's standard, the system would be given the opportunity to execute without those accused having a right to defend themselves. If I misinterpreted that I apologize, but that's what I'm reading here. He noted that the accused should be executed today based on the eyewitnesses.

If I witnessed someone intentionally killing/raping/injuring my family I would immediately and summarily dispense my own justice if I was able to. Because I have little faith in our system, not from the intake (Law Enforcement), not in the procedural (lawyers) nor in the Judicial (Judges).

Whether you personally retaliate is a different topic than whether our system should immediately execute someone

I know, I'm gross.

If you say so, that wasn't my take here.

[Ken]

I don't get this sentiment--people like me are at a point where we will act. If I'd been in the crowd where the guy drove into our protest he'd never have made it out alive. Sure there might have been people there to stop me or those like minded, but I'd certainly have tried to mete out my justice. Same with Rittenhouse et al and yeah, there's a chance I'd be hurt, killed or jailed for doing so and reviled by those who aren't as retributive as I, but that's ok by me. I know who i am, what I believe and that it's not going to go over well with some folks.

The danger here is that Rittenhouse would say exactly the same thing as his reasoning for committing the initial act.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I don't get this sentiment--people like me are at a point where we will act. If I'd been in the crowd where the guy drove into our protest he'd never have made it out alive. Sure there might have been people there to stop me or those like minded, but I'd certainly have tried to mete out my justice. Same with Rittenhouse et al and yeah, there's a chance I'd be hurt, killed or jailed for doing so and reviled by those who aren't as retributive as I, but that's ok by me. I know who i am, what I believe and that it's not going to go over well with some folks.

As for the anti mask killer, i wouldn't hang him--I'd inject him with CV-19 and let if he survived, he goes free--if not--oh well.

See Mith is actually nicer about than I am.

My point is that you aren't god, you aren't the judge, jury, and executioner for every time that would happen around the world. There are a lot of people who would be dispensing different justice than you would. And maybe you wouldn't agree with their choices? I'm pretty sure the same processes that result in the rich people getting their way now are going to result in them getting to summarily execute the people they want and not the other way around. And the racists are going to execute black people in the dead of night, and so forth. That's what I mean by saying they're not going to call you to check if you're okay with it. You don't get to be the sole person with that power. If you get to dispense vigilante justice, so does random yokel in Bumfuck, Texas.

And by the way, I'm not sure you would make good choices, either. I don't want to give you that power. To be frank, you don't seem level-headed and wise enough that I would want to make you a judge, let alone judge and jury and executioner.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Ah, we are talking about completely different things here. By mith's standard, the system would be given the opportunity to execute without those accused having a right to defend themselves. If I misinterpreted that I apologize, but that's what I'm reading here. He noted that the accused should be executed today based on the eyewitnesses.



Whether you personally retaliate is a different topic than whether our system should immediately execute someone



If you say so, that wasn't my take here.

OK cool, I mistook your response--My bad.

[Ken]

My point is that you aren't god, you aren't the judge, jury, and executioner for every time that would happen around the world. There are a lot of people who would be dispensing different justice than you would. And maybe you wouldn't agree with their choices? I'm pretty sure the same processes that result in the rich people getting their way now are going to result in them getting to summarily execute the people they want and not the other way around. And the racists are going to execute black people in the dead of night, and so forth. That's what I mean by saying they're not going to call you to check if you're okay with it. You don't get to be the sole person with that power. If you get to dispense vigilante justice, so does random yokel in Bumfuck, Texas.

And by the way, I'm not sure you would make good choices, either. I don't want to give you that power. To be frank, you don't seem level-headed and wise enough that I would want to make you a judge, let alone judge and jury and executioner.

Yeah vigilante justice as a standard is extremely naive and short sighted. It works for the passion in the moment, but there's no rational argument that's its a reasonable, functional standard.

[GwynnInTheHall]

My point is that you aren't god, you aren't the judge, jury, and executioner for every time that would happen around the world. There are a lot of people who would be dispensing different justice than you would. And maybe you wouldn't agree with their choices? I'm pretty sure the same processes that result in the rich people getting their way now are going to result in them getting to summarily execute the people they want and not the other way around. And the racists are going to execute black people in the dead of night, and so forth. That's what I mean by saying they're not going to call you to check if you're okay with it. You don't get to be the sole person with that power. If you get to dispense vigilante justice, so does random yokel in Bumfuck, Texas.

And by the way, I'm not sure you would make good choices, either. I don't want to give you that power. To be frank, you don't seem level-headed and wise enough that I would want to make you a judge, let alone judge and jury and executioner.

Well I don't believe in God so, I'm not looking for that job. I also don't expect people to understand/agree with my though process. I'd say--you really have no idea who I am or how I think outside of this forum so your opinion on weather or not I would make good choices is irrelevant.

Your assertion that Bumfuck yokel will now have a valid reason to dispense his justice and will now do so is flawed. They already DO that shit, which is the point. They do it and get away with it. It's time to fight back. And when the system fails us, handle it ourselves or we can continue to sit back and say--oh well.

I guess I gravitate more towards a Malcolm X/Farrakhan mentality than I do an MLK/Ghandi mantra. And I'm ok with that.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Well I don't believe in God so, I'm not looking for that job. I also don't expect people to understand/agree with my though process. I'd say--you really have no idea who I am or how I think outside of this forum so your opinion on weather or not I would make good choices is irrelevant.

Your assertion that Bumfuck yokel will now have a valid reason to dispense his justice and will now do so is flawed. They already DO that shit, which is the point. They do it and get away with it. It's time to fight back. And when the system fails us, handle it ourselves or we can continue to sit back and say--oh well.

I guess I gravitate more towards a Malcolm X/Farrakhan mentality than I do an MLK/Ghandi mantra. And I'm ok with that.

So you're not even proposing any sort of legal standard, you just want to be able to do whatever the hell you want without consequence and damn everybody else? Please me tell me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm hearing you say. Some sort of world where only GITH gets a get-out-jail-free card to kill whoever he wants is (a) not a rational proposal and (b) not a world I want to live in.

[GwynnInTheHall]

So you're not even proposing any sort of legal standard, you just want to be able to do whatever the hell you want without consequence and damn everybody else? Please me tell me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm hearing you say. Some sort of world where only GITH gets a get-out-jail-free card to kill whoever he wants is (a) not a rational proposal and (b) not a world I want to live in.

#1 I've never said I'd warrant or want a get out of jail free card, in fact I stated in a post above--should I respond in the manner I've mentioned I could be hurt, killed or jailed. I own my shit and will accept any consequence of my actions.
#2 I haven't said abolish anything, only that in certain situations, dispensing your own justice is valid and wishing people to Get theirs is a valid mindset.
#3 You don't have to live in my world, live in yours--I've not once stated that everyone should think like me, nor that my world is the best way for all. It works for me, That's all.

I understand my way of thinking is not nor has it been, even close to how you go about life. I will say, even though I'm not a person of faith, I don't every recall saying I don't want to live in a world where people believe in the invisible man in the sky or other disparaging things in relation to our different approaches to life/existence. But I guess we all extol what we think is right or wrong from our perspectives, don't we.

Have a great day (really) and wear a mask (around Mith)

[heyelander]

I'm friends with a guy who use to be a public defender. His thoughts were that 90% of people who kill someone aren't really a threat to society. They were in a situation that escalated to a breaking point and one person killed the other. They were only ever a threat to that one person. Now that's unacceptable, and doesn't work in society, but it does suggest that money spent on incarceration might be better spent before the event on mental health, social support, and better thought around conflict resolution. I think the fuck 'em, hang them high attitude actually contributes to conflict escalation and the eye for an eye attitude we have both inside and outside of the law in this country. We are much more interested in blaming and punishing people than we are in helping them.

You aren't saving the next guy, you are contributing to a mindset of aggression judgement and punishment

[Ken]

#1 I've never said I'd warrant or want a get out of jail free card, in fact I stated in a post above--should I respond in the manner I've mentioned I could be hurt, killed or jailed. I own my shit and will accept any consequence of my actions.
#2 I haven't said abolish anything, only that in certain situations, dispensing your own justice is valid and wishing people to Get theirs is a valid mindset.
#3 You don't have to live in my world, live in yours--I've not once stated that everyone should think like me, nor that my world is the best way for all. It works for me, That's all.

I understand my way of thinking is not nor has it been, even close to how you go about life. I will say, even though I'm not a person of faith, I don't every recall saying I don't want to live in a world where people believe in the invisible man in the sky or other disparaging things in relation to our different approaches to life/existence. But I guess we all extol what we think is right or wrong from our perspectives, don't we.

Have a great day (really) and wear a mask (around Mith)

I'm confused.

This whole topic started with Mith saying that the guy should just be immediately executed. KS noted that "I'm glad Hangin' Judge Mith is not running my county.", and you responded "I don't know, he might be on to something."

How have we switched to "You don't have to live in my world, live in yours--I've not once stated that everyone should think like me, nor that my world is the best way for all". This conversation literally started by you suggesting that your way (related to Mith's) "might" be the best.

Feels like the goalposts keep moving.

But regardless, have a good day GITH! Hope your Padres win.

[Kevin Seitzer]

#1 I've never said I'd warrant or want a get out of jail free card, in fact I stated in a post above--should I respond in the manner I've mentioned I could be hurt, killed or jailed. I own my shit and will accept any consequence of my actions.
#2 I haven't said abolish anything, only that in certain situations, dispensing your own justice is valid and wishing people to Get theirs is a valid mindset.
#3 You don't have to live in my world, live in yours--I've not once stated that everyone should think like me, nor that my world is the best way for all. It works for me, That's all.

I understand my way of thinking is not nor has it been, even close to how you go about life. I will say, even though I'm not a person of faith, I don't every recall saying I don't want to live in a world where people believe in the invisible man in the sky or other disparaging things in relation to our different approaches to life/existence. But I guess we all extol what we think is right or wrong from our perspectives, don't we.

Have a great day (really) and wear a mask (around Mith)

I think you are saying something different than I thought you were saying given where this conversation started (which was about how society should handle justice for murderers).

I totally understand the Black Panthers, for instance, believing that being armed prevented a lot of violence from being done against them and their families/friends/neighborhoods. I don't know if it was good or not, but it's at least understandable. If that's where you are going with this, then I can relate to that a lot better than the idea of widespread vigilante revenge killings and summary lynchings being a good idea for society.

There have been a few times in my life when I was angry enough at someone to kill them. I am thankful that in all those situations I did not have that opportunity in front of me. I would have been grossly out of line to employ violence in any of them, and I realized that when I cooled down. In the last ten years or so, I've finally started dealing with some of the roots of that anger in my life to the point where I believe I'm making better and healthier emotional choices. I think what heyelander said is spot on--eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth doesn't result in justice, it just means everyone is blind and toothless because the violence keeps escalating. Rational, circumscribed use of violence is a myth (or a Mith?). Maybe you're a healthier and more emotionally controlled person than I am, but I haven't seen evidence of that on this board. It's true I don't know all of you, and you don't know all of me, but unless you're completely playing a troll act here for however many years, I do think I know something about you. I wouldn't trust you in the role you're suggesting because I wouldn't trust myself. I wouldn't trust myself in that role, not because I think I'm a Gandhi, but because I know I'm not because I've lived with myself for 48 years.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'm confused.

This whole topic started with Mith saying that the guy should just be immediately executed. KS noted that "I'm glad Hangin' Judge Mith is not running my county.", and you responded "I don't know, he might be on to something."

How have we switched to "You don't have to live in my world, live in yours--I've not once stated that everyone should think like me, nor that my world is the best way for all". This conversation literally started by you suggesting that your way (related to Mith's) "might" be the best.

Feels like the goalposts keep moving.

But regardless, have a good day GITH! Hope your Padres win.

Man my Padres are struggling, but maybe we can channel some Gwynn mojo for a win tonight.

Maybe I went off tangent, but I agree with Mith's intent that at times we need to respond in kind when egregious shit happens. I do believe we need to make the consequence of peoples actions so off putting, that others will think twice before repeating similar actions. Mith should have qualified his comment with, if the security footage shows....but I feel that's implied. I don't think he was ever advocating to just off the guy based on hearsay. Which is what people are inferring he said. But I'll let Mith speak for himself, that's just what I based my response to and yeah--if the guy can be seen shooting the cashier over a mask edict, he needs to suffer the same fate--IMO.

Heye brings up a good point, if we were focused on preventative care and the like, instances like this would be fewer and far between and the feeling of being let down by the system and seeking justice on our own wouldn't be such a prevalent sentiment.

However, the reality of our world is such that--I don't see any respite from the division and enmity we experience daily. I've said many time, it's gonna get worse before it gets better and I'd say--it's gotten worse over the past several years and I don't see it getting better.