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  • #31
    Originally posted by DMT View Post
    You get pushback because you attack people and often distort what they're saying. Several posters have acknowledged that you offer valuable contributions and insights, but unfortunately they're drowned out. And it's a continuing pattern so understandably people are defensive (and resistant). It's not helping advance your message.
    Saying that conservatives are more supportive of authoritarianism, then posting an article to back up my point is a personal attack? I really don't see it.

    But I dont want to divert the thread. Thanks DMT for making great points to support my argument. You did a great job, and not having my reputation allowed for a more thoughtful discourse.
    Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
      My single biggest police issue is body cameras. I think they solve a lot of corruption issues if used correctly. DMT made 4 awesome points about ending corruption. I would add to the body camera requirement.

      The proper way to use body cameras is to disallow officers from turning them on/off. Control should be external. If cameras are covered or obscured, it's easier to determine that it's being done purposefully, and would still record sound.
      Agree, good points. And put it on the officer to be responsible for the footage. As an officer, part of your JOB is to make sure everything is recorded.

      Oh the camera got obscured so that's an excuse? Nope, that means you failed at your job. Keeps happening? See ya.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
        and not having my reputation allowed for a more thoughtful discourse.
        For what it's worth, NOPE. Notice above when you just made a good point with none of the garbage, my feedback was exactly the same to you as it was to DMT.

        Comment


        • #34
          My interactions with cops have been a mixed bag, but that's only because I'm a white male. My Indian in-laws have never run afoul of the law, yet none of them like cops because they recognize how biased they are. Similarly, none of my friends who are POC like cops. These aren't just coincidences.
          If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
          - Terence McKenna

          Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

          How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ken View Post
            I'm not sure that's the article you want to use against ITC and Steve. First of all, it's a left leaning source, so I doubt that's the type of article you'd want to use as a reasonable explanation of a question about the right. But regardless, I don't think it says what you think it says.

            Here's the relevant quotes IMO:

            "The highest levels of support for authoritarian leadership come from those who are disaffected, disengaged from politics, deeply distrustful of experts, culturally conservative, and have negative attitudes toward racial minorities"

            "Support for authoritarian leadership is concentrating in the Republican Party, and its elites are doing little to push back. In our highly polarized two-party system, this poses the risk that future partisan conflict could become a battle over democracy itself."

            So somehow you are taking that to mean that "Conservatives usually support authoritarianism"?

            That's not what the article says at all.

            And here's another one just for fun since it goes 100% against what you said:

            "So when it comes to American authoritarianism, perhaps the problem isn’t so much Mr. Trump as it is hyper-partisanship"

            The article is saying that the highest support for authoritarianism comes from those conservatives who are DISENGAGED from politics, and specifically racists. And it says that the party itself isn't pushing back against that group. Both of which certainly may be true. But how are you reading that to say that conservatives are USUALLY supporting authoritarianism? That's not at all what your article says. That's garbage broad brush painting that does no good, and hence the pushback from a couple others here.
            Ken, lemme clarify. I follow a ton of leftist YouTube, in the winter sometimes watching 10+ hours a day of lefty media. Within that sphere, I've heard several discussions over the past few years about right wingers, specifically Trump supporters, but also more BROADLY, people who's brains are wired as conservative are more likely to support authoritarianism. These discussions are always about a different academic study, each slightly different, but all illustrative of my central point.

            The article I posted was literally the first that I looked at, and it seems to largely confirm what I'm saying. It doesnt fo into conservative vs liberal physiological differences or anything like that, it's based on a short survey. So I'm filling in details that I'm aware of, but I havent provided links to any of that. To be honest, I'm on vacation with family, and I dont have the time.

            But if you have a problem with the link I provided, do some secondary searching of google I suggested. Dozens of articles on various studies show my conclusions.

            As far as broad brush strokes, I'm saying anybody that self identifies as conservative is much more likely to be comfortable relinquishing control over their lives to a trusted authority. That's how I view ITC, trusting authority. Is that wrong? It's certainly not intended as a personal attack.
            Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
              Ken, lemme clarify. I follow a ton of leftist YouTube, in the winter sometimes watching 10+ hours a day of lefty media.
              Seriously????
              If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
              - Terence McKenna

              Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

              How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by DMT View Post
                My interactions with cops have been a mixed bag, but that's only because I'm a white male. My Indian in-laws have never run afoul of the law, yet none of them like cops because they recognize how biased they are. Similarly, none of my friends who are POC like cops. These aren't just coincidences.
                I grew up admiring and respecting police. I'll give my police abuse story to illustrate my personal bias.

                When I was about 25, I was plastered drunk, walking home at 1 am after a concert. I came across 3 or 4 people standing around 1 person bloodied on the ground. I stopped to see that everyone was okay, and 1 of the group told me to leave. I stammered back a bunch of drunken gibberish, and he told me to leave again. Not understanding this plainclothes person was an officer, being 20 feet away, I told him to fuck off and turned and walked away. The plainclothes officer ran up behind me, grabbed me, slammed my face into a police car and told me "you shouldn't talk that way to police officers"...

                He proceeded to push my head against the car with his knee digging into my back, terrorizing me for what would end up being a half hour or so. He did the classic police trick of cuffing me too hard to cut off my circulation. It was total agony, literal torture. I was screaming and crying like a trapped animal. Here's what he said to me: "This is my motherfucking street, you got that? Mine. If I see you again on my street, I'm gonna kick the living shit out of you, drive you out to the forest and leave you there. Don't you ever show your fucking face on MY fucking street again, you got that you piece of shit?" On and on like that for half an hour, cramping my cuffs tighter to inflict more pain.

                Afterwards, I suffered nerve damage in my wrists, especially bad in my right wrist. I had pain, cold, ti gling/numbness in my right hand for 3-4 months, and had to miss 1 week of landscaping work, and alter my work for the rest of the season.

                That's the biggest incident for me that showed me complete lack of accountability for corruption.

                Edit to add: I now suffer from carpal tunnel in my right hand and I'm only 36. Not sure if its connected, but there ya go.
                Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by DMT View Post
                  Seriously????
                  I know, I'm not proud of it. It's an obsessive compulsive thing.
                  Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                    Ken, lemme clarify. I follow a ton of leftist YouTube, in the winter sometimes watching 10+ hours a day of lefty media. Within that sphere, I've heard several discussions over the past few years about right wingers, specifically Trump supporters, but also more BROADLY, people who's brains are wired as conservative are more likely to support authoritarianism. These discussions are always about a different academic study, each slightly different, but all illustrative of my central point.

                    The article I posted was literally the first that I looked at, and it seems to largely confirm what I'm saying. It doesnt fo into conservative vs liberal physiological differences or anything like that, it's based on a short survey. So I'm filling in details that I'm aware of, but I havent provided links to any of that. To be honest, I'm on vacation with family, and I dont have the time.
                    No problem, it was strange seeing such anger for others not reading an article about a topic you are focused on, followed by an article that didn't actually agree with your main points. I definitely see where you are coming from, but it didn't match the angst, and the article didn't really make sense in context with what you were trying to "prove".

                    Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                    But if you have a problem with the link I provided, do some secondary searching of google I suggested. Dozens of articles on various studies show my conclusions.
                    I don't have any problem with your article other than finding it odd what you took away from it. I'm sure there are dozens of articles from individuals trying to compartmentalize conservatives, and similar articles suggesting the opposite. Hyperpartisan culture and all.

                    Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                    As far as broad brush strokes, I'm saying anybody that self identifies as conservative is much more likely to be comfortable relinquishing control over their lives to a trusted authority. That's how I view ITC, trusting authority. Is that wrong? It's certainly not intended as a personal attack.
                    I wouldn't say the characterization that Conservatives support authoritarianism was necessarily an attack on ITC, but the dictator comment following it was certainly not flattering. You meant it as a disparaging remark for sure. It was a jab. But we're past that so I'll certainly drop it.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                      I grew up admiring and respecting police. I'll give my police abuse story to illustrate my personal bias.

                      When I was about 25, I was plastered drunk, walking home at 1 am after a concert. I came across 3 or 4 people standing around 1 person bloodied on the ground. I stopped to see that everyone was okay, and 1 of the group told me to leave. I stammered back a bunch of drunken gibberish, and he told me to leave again. Not understanding this plainclothes person was an officer, being 20 feet away, I told him to fuck off and turned and walked away. The plainclothes officer ran up behind me, grabbed me, slammed my face into a police car and told me "you shouldn't talk that way to police officers"...

                      He proceeded to push my head against the car with his knee digging into my back, terrorizing me for what would end up being a half hour or so. He did the classic police trick of cuffing me too hard to cut off my circulation. It was total agony, literal torture. I was screaming and crying like a trapped animal. Here's what he said to me: "This is my motherfucking street, you got that? Mine. If I see you again on my street, I'm gonna kick the living shit out of you, drive you out to the forest and leave you there. Don't you ever show your fucking face on MY fucking street again, you got that you piece of shit?" On and on like that for half an hour, cramping my cuffs tighter to inflict more pain.

                      Afterwards, I suffered nerve damage in my wrists, especially bad in my right wrist. I had pain, cold, ti gling/numbness in my right hand for 3-4 months, and had to miss 1 week of landscaping work, and alter my work for the rest of the season.

                      That's the biggest incident for me that showed me complete lack of accountability for corruption.

                      Edit to add: I now suffer from carpal tunnel in my right hand and I'm only 36. Not sure if its connected, but there ya go.
                      Given the background, I can see why you come at these stories from that perspective. Thanks for sharing, I'm sure that's not a fun memory.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DMT View Post
                        Absolutely no reason officers should be able to turn them off.

                        I got pulled over once and, even though I passed all the field sobriety tests, he still arrested me on a DUI charge because I refused to take the breathalyzer (on prior advice from my friends who are lawyers). Lo and behold his dash camera mysteriously was turned off, er "malfuncitioned".
                        Why did they say not to do the breathalyzer?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sour Masher View Post
                          Why did they say not to do the breathalyzer?
                          This was many years ago before states started passing laws increasing the penalties for refusing. Essentially, the breathalyzer eliminates any deniability if you fail. He pulled me over for a broken taillight and, although I knew I was not intoxicated, I'd had a few over the course of the evening and didn't want to chance it.
                          If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                          - Terence McKenna

                          Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                          How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                            This thread is hilarious to me... everybody saying that I'm morally bankrupt and then DMT makes all of the points I would have while I'm sleeping... the result, DMT is given credit for good points, while I'm still somehow a peddler of trash, and broad brush strokes.

                            Gregg, Ken, ITC... you guys are so biased to disagree with anything I say. The bullshit snide responses and acting like I'm morally bankrupt... it really sucks. I guess I'm done whining, but I'm just completely sick of the anti-TW shtick interfering with legitimate conversation.
                            I perceive you to be a smart person TW, and I appreciate a lot of what you post, which is why it continually perplexes me when you post something like this and then are confused by the responses you get. It is one thing to call attention to concerns about how police are vetted, trained, and regulated, and how, as with any group, problems in these are exacerbated by the reality that there are some bad people drawn to the profession, for the power they get to wield. It is another to make a sweeping claim about most cops based on this story or your personal experience.

                            Ken touched on this when you talked about you painting with a broad brush. I'll go further and use an example from the other extreme side of things, which I know you will find appalling, but I make the comparison because I hope you will see how toxic this sort of thing is.

                            Let's say a poster on here posted a horrible crime committed by a black man, and used that crime as a jumping off point about how "blacks are mostly parasites." What if when challenged about his unsupported statistics and sweeping stereotypes, part of his explanation for his beliefs is that he was attacked and brutally beaten by black gang members who said he needed to get off their streets.

                            TW, you shouldn't have had to experience that power-tripping cop hurting you any more than someone else shouldn't have to accept being beaten by criminals. But neither experience is strong evidence to support broader claims about a large group. It still isn't strong evidence to take it a step further and say, well, I have had friends with similar experiences, and I see stories like mine in the news all the time. Using such experiences that may not be proportionate to larger data sets to make such claims is dangerous and divisive. It is also disturbing when such claims seem to suggest that the group in question is irredeemable, and just rotten to the core, with no measures we can take to improve things. DMT provided solutions, which is one reason his post was more well received. I haven't seen you even acknowledge the necessity of their job to a functioning society. I hope you agree that police are necessary, and if so, what can we do to make policing better? Focusing on that rather than maligning/stereotyping the group as a whole is much more productive.

                            On a related note that you have not addressed about Sanders, I have pointed out before that Sanders has certainly seen police as performing a vital role when he was mayor of Burlington, using them against anti-war protesters who were against GE making Gatling guns to kill socialists in Central America. He sent in the police to arrest those protesters. How do you feel about that? Do you agree with the use of the police to do such things? Is that a valuable and good service they provide the community Was Sanders right to mobilize them for such a task?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Getting back to this after a day or so, working two jobs ATM so-I missed a lot.

                              First, to add to what others have said about the Job of Law Enforcement, It's also about the fact that in most places the job of building bridges with the community (community officers) have been blended with enforcement because of funding or lack thereof. Funding has also impacted training in that more guys are hitting the streets unprepared or far less prepared than in the past and finally, fewer people are applying for the job and the departments are having to take borderline rejectees, guys who used to be passed over, just to fill spots on the force. This isn't just my opinion, it's directly from my brother when I asked him why are these things happening more frequently than they did in the past.

                              I've never had a really bad experience with LE, I've met some toolish officers, but they're not the norm but then I can also say, I've absolutely avoid harsher interactions because the times I could have been handled differently, I benefitted from being clean cut, older and white.

                              That aside, I see systemic issues that need to be addressed and a definite need to clean out the bad seeds, if only to repair reputation and regain the trust of the people they serve.

                              A lot of great suggestions on other implementations which would definitely help as well.
                              If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                              Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                              Martin Luther King, Jr.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I have interacted with police officers in various capacities over the course of my life: as a fellow first responder when I was a volunteer EMT; as a volunteer with the NYC Civilian Complaint Review Board; and as the COO and liaison to law enforcement for a suburban public school district. I've also been pulled over around six times for speeding and questioned as a suspect in a hit-and-run/abandoned vehicle (funny story in retrospect - running late for a conference at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City and somehow didn't successfully engage the emergency brake in my automatic car when I hopped out and ran to register - unwitnessed by me the car rolled out of the spot and down the ramp where it hit another parked car).

                                In my experience, there are a lot of wonderful, dedicated police officers who take their civic responsibilities very seriously. And yes, there are far too many police officers who harbor seriously problematic bigotries, who abuse their power in their interactions with civilians, and/or who protect colleagues who abuse their power from being held accountable. While I think the police officers who abuse their power are in the minority (albeit too large a minority not to question the vetting, training and monitoring), the prevalence of police officers at all levels of the hierarchy who will protect that minority from being held accountable is what makes the problem an institutional crisis that demands action. The remedies that have been discussed in this thread already are worth implementing, and we probably also need to expand the use of empowered civilian complaint review boards to field and investigate charges of police misconduct and cover-ups of police misconduct.

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