There is no proof that God exists

[Fresno Bob]

What a strange argument.

Is your argument that there is no proof of God's existence or is your argument that there's evidence that God is not omnipotent or are you arguing that God is not good?

Because the way you have structured your point, hockey "doesn't exist" because I don't see why anyone likes playing it since it's not fun for me.

If you want to have this kind of discussion you really need to focus in on what you are arguing about, because currently you are all over the place.

nope, hockey exists. I have empirical evidence for its existence, and can replicate it as many times as I want. There is zero empirical evidence for "God". I was trying to head off the "God works in mysterious ways/have to take it on faith/God gave us free will that's why you don't see him". Perhaps I should have gone with "Either God doesn't exist, or is the world's biggest asshole, or just doesn't care about the ants in the grass", your pick

[Fresno Bob]

It is certainly popular to argue that the Bible reads plausibly as fiction but I have never found the argument convincing.

Good fiction has its roots in reality. It is also instructive to compare it to other religious texts from the period. The Hebrew scriptures and analytical texts have a depth and solidity that others lack. This is particularly true when the histories are contemporanious rather than from oral tradition, eg the life of Moses. However, comparing the Flood of Gilgamesh to the flood of Noah favors the Hebrew text.

It is also popular to disparage oral traditions. Cook and Magellan sailed the Pacific over 400 years ago (the 500th anniversary of Magellan's sailing is next year). Oral traditions of various Pacific tribal groups have a wealth of detail that is confirmed by the ship's log books.

J

there is no difference between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible, both are myths.

[Fresno Bob]

I also believe that most religions are sustained because people can't face the terror of their own oblivion.

I embrace the terror of my oblivion, which is why I try to do things in the now, rather than thinking about an allmighty skyfather and the Big Rock Candy Mountain in the sky

reading Thomas Ligotti and Laird Barron fiction has helped me accept the great emptyness after

[Ken]

nope, hockey exists. I have empirical evidence for its existence, and can replicate it as many times as I want. There is zero empirical evidence for "God". I was trying to head off the "God works in mysterious ways/have to take it on faith/God gave us free will that's why you don't see him". Perhaps I should have gone with "Either God doesn't exist, or is the world's biggest asshole, or just doesn't care about the ants in the grass", your pick

Got it, while I don't agree with your conclusions, at least your argument matches the thesis now.

[Fresno Bob]

[QUOTE=DMT;315728]So the Bible is non-fiction but other religions texts are fiction?[/QUO
TE]

you know my answer on this

[onejayhawk]

Let me be clearer then, there is no evidence for the existence of "God". Showing me some 2000 year old marketing materials isn't "evidence", it is propaganda.

This is catagorically false. You chose to disbelieve the evidence, but it is incorrect to say there is none.

nope, hockey exists. I have empirical evidence for its existence, and can replicate it as many times as I want. There is zero empirical evidence for "God". I was trying to head off the "God works in mysterious ways/have to take it on faith/God gave us free will that's why you don't see him". Perhaps I should have gone with "Either God doesn't exist, or is the world's biggest asshole, or just doesn't care about the ants in the grass", your pick

There is zero impirical evidence that beauty exists. It is one of many things that are entirely subjective. The imperical evidence is in the collective perception.

J

[DMT]

I do not doubt that some other religions have some truth in their texts.

How many of the other religions name names and places that are corroborated in other texts?

I believe there are truths in the Bible (as I do with many religious texts) but overall I still consider it a work of historical fiction.

[onejayhawk]

I believe there are truths in the Bible (as I do with many religious texts) but overall I still consider it a work of historical fiction.

What do you mean historical fiction? That's a term that was applied to In Cold Blood. Do you mean a similar mix of fact and embellishment?

J

[Fresno Bob]

This is catagorically false. You chose to disbelieve the evidence, but it is incorrect to say there is none.


There is zero impirical evidence that beauty exists. It is one of many things that are entirely subjective. The imperical evidence is in the collective perception.

J

there is none, disprove me.

There is no difference between the Bible and Snow White and the 7 Dwarves. Jesus was not born on December 25th because the Romans don't run the tax census in the winter. Occam's Razor says that someone found extra wine in the backroom, people showed up with more bread and fish, and somebody bribed the roman guards and took the body from the tomb. Writing down another story doesn't make it true. Why is the Bible true and the Epic of Gilgamesh or Star Wars not?

when you read my corporate propaganda, my company is great, our products are perfect, and our competitors suck. The Bible is corporate propaganda from the world's first multi-national corporation, not proof of anything. I can prove this empirically because of the multiple versions of the 4 gospels, and the existence of several others, plus the notes/minutes from historical events such as the Council of Nicaea and the 1st and 2nd Vatican Councils, in which the marketing strategy was decided, as well as the product offering, and the franchise rules.

Please list the empirical evidence for God. Not Jesus, because he existed, he just happened to be 100% human, not a god or a space alien. He also was the 1st socialist. Empirical, verifiable, replicable proof of God. I'll take my answer off the air.

[Fresno Bob]

What do you mean historical fiction? That's a term that was applied to In Cold Blood. Do you mean a similar mix of fact and embellishment?

J

More embellishment than fact, I say. The earth is more than 6000 years old. FACT. People did not live to be 800 years old 5000 years ago. FACT.

[Teenwolf]

I embrace the terror of my oblivion, which is why I try to do things in the now, rather than thinking about an allmighty skyfather and the Big Rock Candy Mountain in the sky

reading Thomas Ligotti and Laird Barron fiction has helped me accept the great emptyness after

I view my skepticism of religion similarly, but I honestly believe humankind is not worthy of salvation, or eternal consciousness.

I look at people posting pictures of their dog on social media, the owners saying "we'll see you in heaven, Mr. Freckles," and I just feel like the overwhelming vanity of mankind... to convince yourself that there's a skygod watching and caring about you, is a validation of purpose that I honestly dont feel we've earned.

We are devastating the planet, and endangering our species' chances of survival daily, and we carry on like lemmings, continuing to validate our existence based on submission to the will of organized religion... it's just sad to me. None of us see the bigger picture. We've earned our destruction.

I've considered myself agnostic, with the caveat being if there was a God, and they could see the state of the world, and humanity, they wouldn't blame me for my lack of devotion. They would understand. I guess I'm more of an anarchist than simply agnostic.

[Ken]

there is none, disprove me.
There is no difference between the Bible and Snow White and the 7 Dwarves.

There are independent, unbiased sources that verify many of the stories told in the Bible. Are you asking for proof of every line or just any proof of some of the individual events that occur? I'm confused about what you are asking, because it is widely understood by both believers of the Bible and non believers that many of the events that are described in the Bible are verifiable. If you are asking for every individual story to be verified, that would take several lifetimes just to gather together...

Jesus was not born on December 25th because the Romans don't run the tax census in the winter.

Is that your view of Christianity? Christmas celebrations? If so I understand your skepticism. The Christian church does not hold to Dec 25th being a definitive date for the birth, it is just the day that it is celebrated. I thought that was pretty widely understood as well.

[Fresno Bob]

There are independent, unbiased sources that verify many of the stories told in the Bible. Are you asking for proof of every line or just any proof of some of the individual events that occur? I'm confused about what you are asking, because it is widely understood by both believers of the Bible and non believers that many of the events that are described in the Bible are verifiable. If you are asking for every individual story to be verified, that would take several lifetimes just to gather together...

Is that your view of Christianity? Christmas celebrations? If so I understand your skepticism. The Christian church does not hold to Dec 25th being a definitive date for the birth, it is just the day that it is celebrated. I thought that was pretty widely understood as well.

What is verifiable from the Bible? That Judea existed as a Roman-occupied region? Sure. What else? I thought the Bible was the actual true literal word of god. You've had 2000 years to verify "every individual story", that's more than a couple of lifetimes. Maybe Snow White is the wrong comparison, how about the Bible is the same as "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter", both are fantastical stories woven around a smattering of historical fact.

[Gregg]

I very much enjoyed our time together. How long ago was that?

I am glad that you brought up the starving children. I have never been to a church that did not give a substantial amount to feeding and taking care of the children.

Maybe God has given us enough resources that no child needs to starve. Maybe many exercise their God given free will to ignore God, or not believe in Him. And in that free will, believer or not, chose not to save the children from starvation. That is not to say or presume that agnostics and non-believers do not give.

I do not think starving children is an indicator of the existence of God. It is more of a statement of our own rebellion.

Fresno, i was kind of hoping you would respond to this one.

[Ken]

What is verifiable from the Bible? That Judea existed as a Roman-occupied region? Sure. What else? I thought the Bible was the actual true literal word of god. You've had 2000 years to verify "every individual story", that's more than a couple of lifetimes. Maybe Snow White is the wrong comparison, how about the Bible is the same as "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter", both are fantastical stories woven around a smattering of historical fact.

Not sure about you but I have not personally been working for 2000 years to try to verify the specific stories. And a religion based on faith is not tailored to the skeptic (like me, believe it or not), so us expecting others to do the groundwork is unrealistic.

Separately, much of the biblical history comes from time periods before there was ubiquitous written history, so questioning them simply due to the lack of evidence is begging the question.

But there's plenty of other verifiable evidence.

There's scientific evidence of a flood of the Black Sea 7000 years ago that matches the Biblical description.
The Hittites were found after previous skepticism.
The Moabite Stone confirms the rebellion of Moab.
There is evidence of the ruins of Jericho.
There's evidence of King David from an Aramaic inscription found recently at Tel Dan.
Roman historians wrote about the execution of Christ by Pontius Pilate.
The death of Jesus was mentioned in Jewish Rabbinical writings.

These are just a few of the more obvious examples. A longer list could be created but I'm not sure that's what you are really looking for here.

When you said there was no evidence and asked for others to disprove you what specifically did you mean?