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  • #16
    Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
    I agree with Sour Masher regarding the depth of the "talent pool" and heyelander re: distorted views of sexuality. I would also note the prevalence of situational "homosexuality" (which I put in quotes because it's an affront to homosexuals to treat it as the same thing) in the form of same-sex assault/rape in the prison system. I do think forced celibacy can drive those of weak will power to grasp for sexual power/release wherever they can find it. (Compare the "incel" phenomenon we've discussed in another thread, although I recognize the priesthood is presumably based on voluntary celibacy.) I think it's a dangerous norm within the priesthood that not only draws deviants, but can also draw out deviance. It's obviously dramatically aided by the culture of secrecy and cover up and the veneer of godliness, which in the mind of a deviant, whether born or created, reduces the real/perceived risk of punishment and makes it a lot easier to decide to act upon deviant urges. Add in that pedophilia itself is far more rare in women than in men and there are plenty of reasons to think ordaining women and ending the celibacy mandates would positively impact the problem.
    So homosexuality is a choice? It just has to be in the right situation? I don't think so. The right situation may bring out the homosexuality. To suggest that situational homosexuality exists, is dangerously close to excluding homosexuals from the priest hood. I doubt that is your intention. From there it is a small leap to teachers.

    Rape is a choice. Never rape no matter what. Don't rape or suffer the consequences.

    Celibacy is no justification for rape. Celibacy is not the issue for pedophilia. Do you think clergy of any kind have trouble having sex with adults if they so chose? How many married non-catholic religious leaders who are only supposed to have sex with their wives have been caught in affairs?

    I am not Catholic. My heart breaks for the innocents and the victims. There should be no time limit to prosecuting the guilty.

    Comment


    • #17
      Judge Jude and Gregg, I believe you're making errors in conflating homosexuality with pedophilia and power with desire. Sexual attraction and consensual sex among adults is far afield from pedophilia and child rape, regardless of the sex of the adult predator and the child prey. My reference to prison rape was to provide an example where extreme deprivation and whacked out power dynamics can compel extreme sexual power behavior that would not occur absent the extreme context. Natural homosexuality in the sense of erotic preference is not a choice (neither, I suspect, is natural pedophilia). But have and do heterosexual people sometimes engage in situational homoerotic and even homosexual activity? Absolutely. Among young women in modern society it's not even really shamed; in some ways it's used as an outlet for sexual energy that greatly reduces the attendant risks of pregnancy, disease and toxic masculinity (degradation/rape/abuse/murder).

      I do agree with Judge Jude that true pedophiles will find ways to earn the trust of parents and children so as to create opportunities to be alone with those children and lay the psychological groundwork to induce the children's submission and/or silence. The priesthood, youth coaching and child care professions, among others, provide opportunities and thus would draw pedophiles. Options to parents for reducing such risks to their own children are to (1) limit the children's exposure to environments with a one-trusted-adult-alone-with-kids dynamic, particularly where the adult is a male, (2) insist on "nanny-cam" type technology in all such settings, and (3) encourage and train children from a young age to recognize and report sexual abuse, and (4) monitor, elicit and believe your children's reactions and reports re: trusted adults (at least until and unless you have adequate proof that it's untrue).

      But going back to the predator priest issue and the points raised by Judge Jude and Gregg:

      Jude, the reason a person who has taken a vow of celibacy would potentially choose to violate that with a child rather than an adult is (1) power, and (2) how that power imbalance can be leveraged to prevent the abuse from being discovered/disclosed/believed. To your question whether the pedophilia predated or postdated the vow of celibacy, I think it's a lot of the former and a bit of the latter. I do believe that prolonged celibacy, particularly where culturally or institutionally compelled, can over time lead to sexual desperation and sexual aggression and accompanying behaviors that were not previously hard-wired. That's why I noted the prison culture example.

      Gregg, none of what I've said is remotely intended to rationalize or justify or absolve a sexual predator from his/her evil deeds, not even remotely. They should absolutely be condemned and prosecuted. But as you may or may not know, I'm a "risk professional". My job is to identify and analyze risk and make observations and recommendations to improve risk mitigation and risk management. So my first instinct is less to throw out obvious condemnations of bad actors (since to me those are obvious baseline conclusions), and more to assess possible root causes and contributing factors and opportunities to mitigate or eliminate risk. But please don't take my analytical risk-based approach as an indication that I don't believe in individual evil, free will, culpability, etc. I very much do.

      Comment


      • #18
        "Judge Jude and Gregg, I believe you're making errors in conflating homosexuality with pedophilia and power with desire."

        I'm not conflating homosexuality with pedophilia, and I doubt Gregg is, either.

        it just seems to me that your defense shield goes up so quickly that you much prefer the idea of religious zealots being monsters, vs monsters pretending to be religious. thus my example of the prevalence of molesters in youth sports. if the "ballgame" clearly doesn't cause the actions, why assume that the religion does?

        I appreciate your responses, but I fear you have had to beat back so many ignoramuses regarding homosexuality that your trigger fires even when other points are being made. Celibacy would only cause potential trauma among devout priests - and assuming that their response is liable to be diddling little boys is just way too easy. The prison example just doesn't work here.
        finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
        own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
        won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

        SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
        RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
        C Stallings 2, Casali 1
        1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
        OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
          "Judge Jude and Gregg, I believe you're making errors in conflating homosexuality with pedophilia and power with desire."

          I'm not conflating homosexuality with pedophilia, and I doubt Gregg is, either.

          it just seems to me that your defense shield goes up so quickly that you much prefer the idea of religious zealots being monsters, vs monsters pretending to be religious. thus my example of the prevalence of molesters in youth sports. if the "ballgame" clearly doesn't cause the actions, why assume that the religion does?

          I appreciate your responses, but I fear you have had to beat back so many ignoramuses regarding homosexuality that your trigger fires even when other points are being made. Celibacy would only cause potential trauma among devout priests - and assuming that their response is liable to be diddling little boys is just way too easy. The prison example just doesn't work here.
          I hear you... and I agree that youth sports attracts people with an affinity or an "affinity" for children... either good or bad. I think there are a lot of easier ways to get to kids than to become a priest though... that's playing the super long game no? I'm going to seminary for however many years, applying for jobs, the church is going to send me wherever, and once I'm there, and have built up enough confidence from my parishioners doing my church job that is primarily about dealing with adults, that they hold me above reproach.. then the kids are mine! Perhaps the culture attracts monsters, or creates them, I don't know... but it's a lot less of a straight line.
          I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by heyelander View Post
            I hear you... and I agree that youth sports attracts people with an affinity or an "affinity" for children... either good or bad. I think there are a lot of easier ways to get to kids than to become a priest though... that's playing the super long game no? I'm going to seminary for however many years, applying for jobs, the church is going to send me wherever, and once I'm there, and have built up enough confidence from my parishioners doing my church job that is primarily about dealing with adults, that they hold me above reproach.. then the kids are mine! Perhaps the culture attracts monsters, or creates them, I don't know... but it's a lot less of a straight line.
            The culture also excuses monstrous behavior as long as they believe and confess.
            If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
            - Terence McKenna

            Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

            How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DMT View Post
              The culture also excuses monstrous behavior as long as they believe and confess.
              sor sure... which is why I'm firmly in the Blow up the culture camp
              I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by heyelander View Post
                I hear you... and I agree that youth sports attracts people with an affinity or an "affinity" for children... either good or bad. I think there are a lot of easier ways to get to kids than to become a priest though... that's playing the super long game no? I'm going to seminary for however many years, applying for jobs, the church is going to send me wherever, and once I'm there, and have built up enough confidence from my parishioners doing my church job that is primarily about dealing with adults, that they hold me above reproach.. then the kids are mine! Perhaps the culture attracts monsters, or creates them, I don't know... but it's a lot less of a straight line.
                that's fair
                finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
                own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
                won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

                SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
                RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
                C Stallings 2, Casali 1
                1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
                OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by heyelander View Post
                  sor sure... which is why I'm firmly in the Blow up the culture camp
                  Agreed
                  If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                  - Terence McKenna

                  Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                  How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DMT View Post
                    The culture also excuses monstrous behavior as long as they believe and confess.
                    The Christian culture does not. I don't believe the Catholic Christian culture does either. I do think the monstrous behavior of covering up the monstrous behavior was more about brand name protection than forgiveness.

                    There is huge difference between excuses and forgives. A truly repentant person can be forgiven yet still have to pay/suffer the consequences of their sin.

                    It doesn't look like there was much repenting going on here.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
                      "Judge Jude and Gregg, I believe you're making errors in conflating homosexuality with pedophilia and power with desire."

                      I'm not conflating homosexuality with pedophilia, and I doubt Gregg is, either.

                      it just seems to me that your defense shield goes up so quickly that you much prefer the idea of religious zealots being monsters, vs monsters pretending to be religious. thus my example of the prevalence of molesters in youth sports. if the "ballgame" clearly doesn't cause the actions, why assume that the religion does?

                      I appreciate your responses, but I fear you have had to beat back so many ignoramuses regarding homosexuality that your trigger fires even when other points are being made. Celibacy would only cause potential trauma among devout priests - and assuming that their response is liable to be diddling little boys is just way too easy. The prison example just doesn't work here.
                      Thank you Judge.

                      I am not conflating homosexuality with pedophilia either.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        And just in case anyone thought that the Catholic Church was immune from the political trend of any tragedy or scandal being spun to advance broader political battles between conservatives and progressives...

                        As many conservatives support the former Vatican diplomat making explosive allegations against the pope, his U.S. allies have rushed to defend him.


                        Conservatives within the Catholic Church hierarchy are using allegations regarding Pope Francis's knowledge of and potential suppression of information around sexual abuse to demand his removal, insisting it's about the sexual abuse issues and not their broader ideological disagreements. Meanwhile progressives within the Church hierarchy are defending Pope Francis. Whether the facts do or do not support a call for his resignation, who knows?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          B-Fly, the final quote from Carr in the article you listed either shows an astounding level of ignorance or deception. Specifically "We need to find out who knew what when, and what they did or did not do to protect young people." I've mentioned this before, but Father Andrew Greeley, noted author, priest and liberal, brings up this topic all the way back in his 1981 novel The Cardinal Sins.

                          Church hierarchy has known about this issue in the US for at least 50 years. In Europe, likely for double or more that figure.
                          I'm just here for the baseball.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                            B-Fly, the final quote from Carr in the article you listed either shows an astounding level of ignorance or deception. Specifically "We need to find out who knew what when, and what they did or did not do to protect young people." I've mentioned this before, but Father Andrew Greeley, noted author, priest and liberal, brings up this topic all the way back in his 1981 novel The Cardinal Sins.

                            Church hierarchy has known about this issue in the US for at least 50 years. In Europe, likely for double or more that figure.
                            Right, but if the argument is that Pope Francis's head needs to roll, then the more specific question is whether that is supported by evidence of his own personal knowledge and any actions to suppress or cover up information about abuse. But it appears that this discussion vis-à-vis Pope Francis won't be evidence-based and rather will break along ideological lines unrelated to the Church's handling of sexual abuse.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                              Right, but if the argument is that Pope Francis's head needs to roll, then the more specific question is whether that is supported by evidence of his own personal knowledge and any actions to suppress or cover up information about abuse. But it appears that this discussion vis-à-vis Pope Francis won't be evidence-based and rather will break along ideological lines unrelated to the Church's handling of sexual abuse.
                              Oh, I think it'll be evidence based, though you're correct that it'll be primarily the theological conservatives driving this train, as the liberals did when his predecessor was Pope.

                              The challenge for the Catholic Church is I doubt they have anyone who wears the sacred crimson today who can't be linked to one of these or similar scandals.
                              I'm just here for the baseball.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                                Oh, I think it'll be evidence based, though you're correct that it'll be primarily the theological conservatives driving this train, as the liberals did when his predecessor was Pope.

                                The challenge for the Catholic Church is I doubt they have anyone who wears the sacred crimson today who can't be linked to one of these or similar scandals.
                                There is no way a Jesuit pope gets toppled, the Jesuits have all the dirt on everyone of those "conservative cardinals"
                                "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

                                "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

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