Democratic Socialist Takeover

[cardboardbox]

LOLOLOLOL... I love it.

I'm so glad we both love it!

[Teenwolf]

I'm so glad we both love it!

You have no answer to my question. You prove my point, you have zero interest in honest debate.

I'm gonna go see my doctor just to spite you... and not pay!!

[baldgriff]

EDIT: to be specific, Bernie was on the ballot in 2016... if the party decides he isnt a loyal Democrat in good standing and denies him a place in the Dem primary

I asked this question of the left here in a different thread (on multiple occassions). During the primaries and election the line I kept hearing about why Bernie couldnt and didnt with the primary was "Bernie isnt a Democrat, he is a Socialist". After the election process the party line was that he was an opportunist - no mention of him actually being a Socialist. The party he ran under called him a Socialist - not some rebranded Socialist Light phrase called Democratic Socialist - they called him Socialist

So again I ask - what changed that only makes Bernie an opportunist after the elections

... then eff the party, burn it down, 4 more yrs, run as 3rd party, who cares, whatever... its suicide to attempt to rig the primary again, so i hope they dont.

I accept it and I'm not bitter, and I also believe blaming progressives who didn't step in line to vote for Hillary is an excuse for their own poor judgment.

The DCCC got rid a lot of the superdelegates as well, so I'm hopeful there's less tipping the scales.

And now another example of "wasting their vote". Again only when it is convenient for you - but hey at least people are slowly understanding my point of view.

[baldgriff]

You have no answer to my question. You prove my point, you have zero interest in honest debate.

I'm gonna go see my doctor just to spite you... and not pay!!

You pay through your tax plan everytime they take money out of your paycheck you are paying to go see the doctor. Keep thinking that just because you dont pay at the door - it is some how "free".

[Teenwolf]

You pay through your tax plan everytime they take money out of your paycheck you are paying to go see the doctor. Keep thinking that just because you dont pay at the door - it is some how "free".

Canada's health care system is waaaaay ahead of the US system by every single metric, costs almost half the US system with better health outcomes, longer lifespan, and no medical bankruptcies, or unnecessary deaths based on insufficient funds. I know it sounds like a living hell, but we actually like it quite a bit, libs and conservatives alike.

[DJBeasties]

Good stuff. Enjoy the talk, boys. Everyone else I have discussions with goes off the rails. Glad for this outlet.

[baldgriff]

Canada's health care system is waaaaay ahead of the US system by every single metric, costs almost half the US system with better health outcomes, longer lifespan, and no medical bankruptcies, or unnecessary deaths based on insufficient funds. I know it sounds like a living hell, but we actually like it quite a bit, libs and conservatives alike.

In reality, the average Canadian household spends more on taxes than any other expense. Specifically, in 2016 the average Canadian family (including single Canadians) earned $83,105 in income and paid $35,283 in total taxes. That’s 42.5 per cent of income going to taxes.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...argest-expense

[cardboardbox]

You have no answer to my question. You prove my point, you have zero interest in honest debate.

I'm gonna go see my doctor just to spite you... and not pay!!

thats as dumb as the idiots who pay for amazon prime and then claim they get FREE SHIPPING!

[Hornsby]

So Bernie is going to beat him this time? Couldn't win in an open contest but Bernie will now knock off an incumbent?

Bernie - No
Booker - NO
Clinton - No
Warren - No
Gabbard - More interesting, still no.
Biden - LOL no
O'Malley - NO

Any or all of them could beat Trump...the only thing that would keep a Democrat from being in the WH in 2021 is the Democrats themselves. Which, as history shows us, they're perfectly capable of doing.

[Teenwolf]

thats as dumb as the idiots who pay for amazon prime and then claim they get FREE SHIPPING!

When it comes to something as vital as health care, Canadians across the board are extremely grateful for our "Amazon Prime" health care. Sorry you guys just cant afford it. Sad.

[cardboardbox]

When it comes to something as vital as health care, Canadians across the board are extremely grateful for our "Amazon Prime" health care. Sorry you guys just cant afford it. Sad.

I'm sure we would if 42.5% of income went to Amazon!

[Sour Masher]

I'm surprised you guys are dancing around the ethical questions involved with a system like this.

Yes, there is the economic argument--overall, on average, a single payer system is more cost effective and efficient. That won't be the case for everyone, but it is the case on average. Of course, that means it makes economic sense for the majority of people to want such a system, but not for everyone, as some people do currently have more cost effective or better, for them, insurance. So, an economic argument will only work for 1. those it benefits economically and 2. utilitarians, who believe actions and policies are good ones if they benefit the majority, even if it does not benefit themselves.

I think most folks are not utilitarian when it comes to most economics, just like I think most Americans are not true socialists, and probably never will be. However, health care is different for ethical reasons, which is why, I think, many on here that are not for socialization of everything get on board for a single payer health care system. In fact, until this conversation, I thought it was something a lot of us agreed with, liberal and conservatives. That is the case in many other countries, where liberals and conservatives have come to agree that while they disagree about socializing other things, socializing health care makes sense.

We aren't talking about socializing all production. We are talking about relatively marginal increases in taxation for many in exchange for a more efficient, humane, system of medical care for all. We are talking, yes, about taxes going up for some (although the total economic impact on people is complicated and difficult to fully predict, because of the long term impact increased preventive care may have on overall costs, among other things). But in exchange for those higher taxes, many in the new system will actually be paying LESS for their healthcare. Again, to be clear, not all. Some will pay the same or more. But the majority will pay less.

The ethical question for the some who will pay more is this--are you willing to pay more so that millions of your fellow Americans can have healthier, happier, more productive lives? It seems to be the most patriotic/nationalistic thing one can advocate for and support--the quality and longevity of life for your fellow Americans. It strikes me as odd that the party who, on the whole, is most eager to spend trillions in money and thousands in lives to fight wars to ensure our "freedom" or dominance on the world stage, won't spend that money to save the lives of fellow Americans, and give them the freedom to live their lives that proper medical care provides.

To those who will respond by pointing out how ineffective the government has been in so many ways with taxpayer dollars, I have to agree with that. Our government is incredibly wasteful--there is no denying that. However, one thing they have historically done pretty well is health care. And as someone who worked in a hospital for years, I can tell you it is not possible for the government to be MORE wasteful and MORE corrupt than the current health insurance systems we have. They are a complete mess, and royally screw over cash payers, as hospitals and doctors obscenely inflate prices in a game with insurances that negotiation deep discounts. It is such a stupid system, and it reminds me of how JC Penny's attempt to drop the bullshit discounts and just mark their clothes honestly failed miserably. Consumers wanted sky high prices and 70% off tags so they'd feel they were getting great values paying the same damn price. Except in health care, those getting screwed by the system are cash payers and the uninsured that don't know the scam and end up paying the sky high prices. I know some of you will say I am underestimating the corruption and waste of the federal government. With almost anything else, I'd say you are right, but believe me--I've seen how medicare and medicaid payments work in a hospital setting and the absurd variety, inconsistency, and waste that happens in the health insurance free market. In this area, for whatever reason, at least 20 years ago when I saw these things, the government system was better.

[nots]

Last July 13th I posted:

Originally Posted by baldgriff
I would have said that Tulsi Gabbard could may have been lining herself up as a possible candidate, but Im not sure anymore.

RF's response

I remember this post and his response and I couldn’t disagree more. Gabbard has a bright future, but I don’t think she’s ready for prime time yet. I think she will stay in the House until a Senate seat opens up (or possibly run for Gov in 2022 if Ige can survive his primary challenge next week and would be term limited after reelection). I have tremendous respect for her calling out the BS with the DNC and irking the Clintonistas. That was some ‘Profiles in Courage ‘ stuff because it looked like career suicide when she did it. Subsequently, we all saw that the fix was in against Sanders, so she was in large part vindicated. She is someone to keep an eye on, but she has time to wait. In the Presidential election of 2056, she will be younger than Biden and Sanders are today. She will have many opportunities.

[TranaGreg]

In reality, the average Canadian household spends more on taxes than any other expense. Specifically, in 2016 the average Canadian family (including single Canadians) earned $83,105 in income and paid $35,283 in total taxes. That’s 42.5 per cent of income going to taxes.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...argest-expense

Just in case folks didn't notice (I'm not even sure that baldgriff noticed) - this figure isn't income taxes; it includes all taxes - property taxes, sales taxes paid, etc. That makes it kind of hard to compare to anywhere else, as I doubt anyone knows what their all-in tax percent would be (I didn't).

For a useful comparison here are the federal tax rates compared for that same salary:

Canada:
15% on the first $46,605 of taxable income, +
20.5% on the next $46,603 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over 46,605 up to $93,208)

US:
10% up to $9,325
15% $9,326 to $37,950
25% $37,951 to $91,900

The province taxes are likely where there is a discrepancy relative to your state taxes, but as Teenwolf said, by & large we're pretty united on our willingness to pay this to get the health care system that we have.

[swampdragon]

There are a lot of valid points in this NYT editorial (link at bottom) - but the summary paragraph is

There is no way the Democratic Party would jettison the party’s social justice wing nor should it. The record does suggest, however, that Democrats need to do a better job of managing the conflict between the centrist corpus of the party and both of its activist left wings — one cultural, one economic — if it expects to fully capitalize on the opportunities that President Trump and his allies have bestowed on them.

I invite you to follow me on Twitter, @Edsall.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook and Twitter (@NYTopinion), and sign up for the Opinion Today newsletter.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/o...ol-left-region