Official Sexual Harrassment Thread

[Hornsby]

Obviously nobody (okay, very few) are excusing these abhorrent behaviours. What people are looking for tho (both in here & out in the world) is an appropriate response from those from the accused's "clan", whether that be Hollywood insiders, or political party members. The only way things will change is if this kind of behaviour is repudiated fast, strong, and publicly. Those who don't are enablers of the culture that has allowed this kind of behaviour to persist for decades. It seems the entertainment industry is finally coming around in speaking out - hopefully it's a trend.

Here's a good example of what you're looking for:

Mitt RomneyVerified account

@MittRomney
1h1 hour ago

Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside.

[Redbirds Fan]

God, I sincerely hope it doesn't come to us needing a whole thread for that.

Everything about the accusations against Moore are appalling. None more so than the distinct possibility that he will stay in the race and win despite them, not only because some will choose not to believe the accusers, but more reprehensible, because far too many won't see it as a big enough deal to warrant not voting party lines.

Some Republicans in his state has gone so far as to defend, justify, and minimize his alleged predatory behavior:

“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama state auditor Jim Ziegler told the Washington Examiner on Thursday."

Ziegler...said the allegations were “much ado about nothing.”

“There is nothing to see here,” the Alabama official told the Examiner. “The allegations are that a man in his early 30s dated teenage girls. Even the Washington Post report says that he never had sexual intercourse with any of the girls and never attempted sexual intercourse.”

In his comments on the incident, Ziegler focused on the fact that the report said Moore had not had sex with the girl and that the relationship happened decades ago. He also pointed to the fact that Moore’s wife is younger than him and the pair began dating shortly after the incidents detailed in the Post report.

“There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here,” Ziegler added, according to the Examiner. “Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

Conversely, at the national level, McCain called for Moore to immediately step aside, and even Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan have said he should do that, if the allegations are true, so I must applaud them all for taking a stand that should be universally obvious, but seems not to be. It is depressing, but not surprising to me that local Republicans in Alabama feel it acceptable to publicly downplay and defend Moore's actions as "noting immoral or illegal...maybe just a little bit unusual."

Amazing.

The evangelical right embraces Trump even though he does not reflect Christian values in his personal or business life. Now they embrace Roy Moore and go so far as to compare him and his victim to Joseph and Mary.

Here are a couple of thoughts. In Alabama, the age of consent is 16. This means that until a person becomes 16 years old they lack the mental capacity to consent to sexual contact (which includes but is not limited to actual sex). It is though the person were mentally disabled or unconscious. Nothing they do in this regard is considered to be "consensual" sexual activity. I have not found a copy of their law from forty years ago, but commentators have said it has remained unchanged.

People continually conflate "proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court" with "true". As a society, we don't need a court verdict to reach a conclusion that an incident actually took place, especially in a case like this where there will never be a criminal charge due to the passage of so much time. We can look at the circumstances. We can use our common sense. We can make up our minds. In fact, this is one reason we have common sense and the ability to evaluate circumstances and the information at our disposal.

John McCain took a brave stance. Faced with the strong nature of the allegations, he straight up said that Roy Moore should withdraw from the race. This differs from what the other GOP politicians said. The others said "if this turns out to be true" that he should step down. The problem with that position is that Moore will never admit doing this, and there will never be proof adequate to make the hard-line GOP admit their guy did such terrible things.

So, on the wager of "when will he step down?", I'm putting the over/under at "never".

[Kevin Seitzer]

Any place there is money and power there is the potential for abuse.

I am not excusing any of it.

Hollywood has long been liberal and Democratic. There has come to light big problems with sexual harassment in the "Hollywood" community both in committing and hiding it. I do not think that it is because they are Democrats has anything to do with their terrible behavior.

Plenty of evil for Dems, Repubs, Atheists, Christians, Jews, etc. to go around. Let's not label a group because of the actions of a few.

I think we as a society have to be careful not to minimize because we like somebody, or jump to conclusions and lynch someone we don't like. I don't like politics, do not know much about Moore. I like movies and particularly Kevin Spacey. I have enjoyed his movies and his interviews. Seems like a great guy and someone I would have wanted to have lunch with (My wife and I play the who would you lunch with game). When the story broke out about him I was hoping it wasn't true. There have been too many reports to deny validity. Makes me a little sad. He is not what I thought he was. He will have to pay the consequences of his behavior. I will have to stop watching his movies (old and new if there are new ones).

This is apparently the tip of the iceberg. It is going to get messy for a lot of people.

I am not saying the Hollywood doesn't have problems. Or wherever.

What I am deeply troubled by is that, after learning that Roy Moore is very likely a child molester, the Republican Party is going to put him in the United States Senate.

I am not shocked that Roy Moore is a child molester any more than I am shocked that Weinstein was a rapist and sexual harrasser or that Kevin Spacey behaved inappropriately toward a child. But the difference between Hollywood and the Republican Party is that when these things come to public light in Hollywood, those people lose their jobs. When those things come to light in the Republican Party, those people are elevated to the highest offices of power in the land. I am not talking about the immorality of the original acts. I am talking about the abhorrent immorality of the power structure in the Republican Party and the conservative church that stares evil in the face and embraces it for the sake of power. There is nothing more like the devil and less like Jesus than that, and we need to call it for what it is. The Democrats aren't behaving this way, and the Republicans should be so deeply ashamed that they are.

[Gregg]

The Democrats aren't behaving this way, and the Republicans should be so deeply ashamed that they are.

Yes some Republicans should should be ashamed and probably worried about getting caught. I hope they do.

Are we giving the Clintons a pass?

[Gregg]

Obviously nobody (okay, very few) are excusing these abhorrent behaviours. What people are looking for tho (both in here & out in the world) is an appropriate response from those from the accused's "clan", whether that be Hollywood insiders, or political party members. The only way things will change is if this kind of behaviour is repudiated fast, strong, and publicly. Those who don't are enablers of the culture that has allowed this kind of behaviour to persist for decades. It seems the entertainment industry is finally coming around in speaking out - hopefully it's a trend.

Good post.

[DMT]

I am not saying the Hollywood doesn't have problems. Or wherever.

What I am deeply troubled by is that, after learning that Roy Moore is very likely a child molester, the Republican Party is going to put him in the United States Senate.

I am not shocked that Roy Moore is a child molester any more than I am shocked that Weinstein was a rapist and sexual harrasser or that Kevin Spacey behaved inappropriately toward a child. But the difference between Hollywood and the Republican Party is that when these things come to public light in Hollywood, those people lose their jobs. When those things come to light in the Republican Party, those people are elevated to the highest offices of power in the land. I am not talking about the immorality of the original acts. I am talking about the abhorrent immorality of the power structure in the Republican Party and the conservative church that stares evil in the face and embraces it for the sake of power. There is nothing more like the devil and less like Jesus than that, and we need to call it for what it is. The Democrats aren't behaving this way, and the Republicans should be so deeply ashamed that they are.

Exactly.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Yes some Republicans should should be ashamed and probably worried about getting caught. I hope they do.

Are we giving the Clintons a pass?

To be clear, my concern here is that the Republican Party already put one person in the highest position of power (Trump) after he admitted to sexual harassment, and they are poised to put another person (Moore) in high office. Those actions speak louder than any words.

I'm not aware that Hillary Clinton is guilty of anything here, so I'm not sure why you say Clintons...but if you are talking about Bill Clinton and Paula Jones, then yes, that would be a good 25-year-old example of the Democrats doing what I am talking about abhorring here. (And as a good Republican at the time, I hated the Democratic Party for it!)

I'm actually happy that all this stuff is coming to light now, and that more women feel empowered to speak up about this kind of behavior. As disgusting as this all is, it represents progress from the time when most of it stayed hidden in the closet. Even if Trump and Roy Moore get to political positions of power, I hope our conversation and expectation as a country has shifted, and that, at least, is good.

[Fresno Bob]

I have a 14 year old daughter, any 30 year old that attempts to "date" her is going to learn what it is like to be on the other side of an imbalance of power and what "non-consentual play" is like for the non-consenting

additionally, is the need to masterbate in front of women "a thing", I don't get it, seems distinctly not hot, and completely full of downside risk, if I was a woman, I'd immediately shift into "laughter and mockery" mode if some dude pulled that (ha ha) in front of me

[Redbirds Fan]

The Clintons got a pass?

I think he was impeached, and had an Independent Counsel on his ass for a few years. Had his opponents been looking at anything other than a) consensual sex acts with an adult, or b) showing his weinie to another adult, they probably would have thrown him down a well.

I was genuinely disappointed by Clinton over this, not because it was something new for the White House but because I had hoped he would be better. Had it been a 14-year old girl involved, I would have demanded his head on a pike.

[Redbirds Fan]

I have a 14 year old daughter, any 30 year old that attempts to "date" her is going to learn what it is like to be on the other side of an imbalance of power and what "non-consentual play" is like for the non-consenting

additionally, is the need to masterbate in front of women "a thing", I don't get it, seems distinctly not hot, and completely full of downside risk, if I was a woman, I'd immediately shift into "laughter and mockery" mode if some dude pulled that (ha ha) in front of me

This.

And this.

[Redbirds Fan]

Just saw an interview with John Merrill, the Alabama Secretary of State on Roy Moore's thing. Merrill mounted sort of a soft defense. He didn't really stick up for Moore, but he thinks it is fishy that people are pulling out these accusations right here at the tail end of the election cycle.

What impressed me most was that he was the most polite guest I have seen on a news/talk show in a very long time. Even though he and the host agreed upon nothing, Merrill was notably courteous and a true gentleman.

[Fresno Bob]

The Clintons got a pass?

I think he was impeached, and had an Independent Counsel on his ass for a few years. Had his opponents been looking at anything other than a) consensual sex acts with an adult, or b) showing his weinie to another adult, they probably would have thrown him down a well.

I was genuinely disappointed by Clinton over this, not because it was something new for the White House but because I had hoped he would be better. Had it been a 14-year old girl involved, I would have demanded his head on a pike.

I too was disappointed, you are the president of the united states, keep your hands off the help. and if you are going to fool around, aim higher. Supermodels, hot actresses, while I don't condone cheating, I admit to being pleased when 1982 Miss America (former Miss Arkansas) Elizabeth Gracen got brought in about her one night stand with Bill, and said, "completely consentual and enjoyable for both parties!"

[Bernie Brewer]

Amazing.

The evangelical right embraces Trump even though he does not reflect Christian values in his personal or business life. Now they embrace Roy Moore and go so far as to compare him and his victim to Joseph and Mary.

Here are a couple of thoughts. In Alabama, the age of consent is 16. This means that until a person becomes 16 years old they lack the mental capacity to consent to sexual contact (which includes but is not limited to actual sex). It is though the person were mentally disabled or unconscious. Nothing they do in this regard is considered to be "consensual" sexual activity. I have not found a copy of their law from forty years ago, but commentators have said it has remained unchanged.

People continually conflate "proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court" with "true". As a society, we don't need a court verdict to reach a conclusion that an incident actually took place, especially in a case like this where there will never be a criminal charge due to the passage of so much time. We can look at the circumstances. We can use our common sense. We can make up our minds. In fact, this is one reason we have common sense and the ability to evaluate circumstances and the information at our disposal.

John McCain took a brave stance. Faced with the strong nature of the allegations, he straight up said that Roy Moore should withdraw from the race. This differs from what the other GOP politicians said. The others said "if this turns out to be true" that he should step down. The problem with that position is that Moore will never admit doing this, and there will never be proof adequate to make the hard-line GOP admit their guy did such terrible things.

So, on the wager of "when will he step down?", I'm putting the over/under at "never".

As someone who would define himself as an Evangelical Christian and probably more right than left (unless I'm talking to a Tailor, ba dum, ching!), I don't embrace Trump, and I know many similarly afflicted that do not embrace him either. And, therefore, I can say with some amount of certainty, "They" do not now embrace Moore. While I understand what you're trying to say, I think broad generalizations are not helpful, and while you didn't say it, I implied it from your comment (God, I hate when people try to read my intent and are very wrong, so if I am wrong, I apologize). I believe that the obvious or implied uses of absolutes, such as; always and never, feed into stereotypes and at best are lazy and at worst are dangerous. If you want to say "large numbers of" or "many" or "polls say 83%", I'm probably good. Not that you asked! But several posters use absolutes and that is bothersome to me, particularly when talking about the GOP.

The "800 pound Gorilla in the room" is the balance of power in the Senate. While Moore's behavior is despicable, anyone who expects the GOP to simply hand this seat to the Democratic is delusional. Wasn't this our friend Steve Bannon's guy? Trump I believe endorse Luther Strange, but this is who the Alabama GOP voters chose. Shouldn't they have known better? Its my understanding that the reality of the situation is that the agency running the election in AL has indicated that time has passed in which Moore can even removed from the ballot. As such, he can't be replaced and if he drops out, any votes cast for him would be uncounted. So to drop out, he would hand the seat to the virtually unopposed Dem, Jones. Obviously people can write in Luther Strange or another Republican, but that's not likely to happen in large enough numbers. The GOP has to swallow a boat load of crap on this one, just how much is tolerable before puking, is the question. Shitty reason, but it politics and its reality.

[Sour Masher]

additionally, is the need to masterbate in front of women "a thing", I don't get it, seems distinctly not hot, and completely full of downside risk, if I was a woman, I'd immediately shift into "laughter and mockery" mode if some dude pulled that (ha ha) in front of me

I'm with you on this. of all the sexual things I can think to ask a woman to engage in, having her watch me jerk off is not just low on the list, it isn't on the list. CK's fetish or thing or whatever is totally alien to my mind, and maybe comes from self-loathing. I can't think of another reason why one's go to ask of a women is this type of sexual engagement.

On this note, CK just released a statement on this. Of course, it doesn't make up for what he did, but he apologized in the right way. He recognized that while he asked these women ahead of time if this was ok (that is his claim, anyway), he realizes he was abusing his power by doing so and putting them in a position in which they felt trapped. He pretty much apologized to everyone, across the board, without trying to justify his behavior beyond saying he was dumb back then for not realizing that the choice he presented to these women wasn't a choice in their minds, given how, when, and who was asking.

I can never see him in the same way I used to, but I am happy that he is fully admitting his acts, apologizing for them, and accepting the consequences of his actions without trying to attack these women to defend himself.

[Bernie Brewer]

Yes some Republicans should should be ashamed and probably worried about getting caught. I hope they do.

Are we giving the Clintons a pass?

Yea, like you said "some", not all!

BTW, what about old crazy Uncle Joe (yes, this is whataboutery, I know)? IIRC, weren't many a picture taken of ol' Uncle Joe Biden smelling women or touching them on their shoulders from behind his nose pressed to their ear or hair? Always seemed creepy to me, but I wasn't one of those women, and maybe they all consented before he did that.