CIA Reports To Torture or Not.

[GwynnInTheHall]

This issue has been discussed for years since *enhanced interrogation* became the common descriptive for Torture. But let's have another crack at it.

Using torture to extract intelligence has universally been considered a failed tactic, even the CIA has said in the past that torture doesn't provide timely information of any use and what it does yield is minimal and usually unreliable, this from their own declassified documents.

Former GOP presidential candidate, John McCain, someone with first hand knowledge of torture and what it produces in the way of meaningful intelligence states "Torture produces [provided] more misleading information than actionable intelligence"

In light of the report and reactions from all quarters it's clear that some feel that even one tiny piece of intel that saves 1 American life justifies the torture of however many Non Americans it takes to do so, even if that ends in the death of those being *interrogated*.

To me, that fits right in with the mindset that currently is pervasive in our country that some lives are just worth more. American lives are more valuable than Non Americans, Rich lives more valuable than Poor lives, Men more valuable than Women, White lives more valuable than persons of color, famous more valuable....and so on and so on.

From my perspective, as long as this mindset exists, there will always be justification in some peoples minds for human rights violations. I don't know how we fix the issue, but it would be nice if we could all at least come to a consensus on what really is the root of the problem.

[DMT]

Of course we value some lives more than others. Do you value your own life the same as others? Your kids' lives (if you have them)? I'm not disagreeing with your argument that this is wrong when applied to some sort of value calculation to justify murder and/or torture, but the 'root problem' you're arguing is simply a fact of life.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Of course we value some lives more than others. Do you value your own life the same as others? Your kids' lives (if you have them)? I'm not disagreeing with your argument that this is wrong when applied to some sort of value calculation to justify murder and/or torture, but the 'root problem' you're arguing is simply a fact of life.

If my child did something wrong, I would march them to their grave if that was the consequence. Would I be devastated, of course, but I believe that accountability, integrity and ethics superseded the commitment we have to ourselves and even those we care about. My commitment it to the greater good above everything else. But that's just me.

You may be right, I don't know if I'm an actual human.

[johnnya24]

Of course we value some lives more than others. Do you value your own life the same as others? Your kids' lives (if you have them)? I'm not disagreeing with your argument that this is wrong when applied to some sort of value calculation to justify murder and/or torture, but the 'root problem' you're arguing is simply a fact of life.

Yeah but they're not the same thing, they're not even close to the same thing. You can't you conflate the everyday desire to protect your kids with the fundamental principles of liberal democracy. Our society is based on principles that are specifically designed to counter and rise above base desires and passion. Constitutions, Rights Charters, the Justice system are in place specifically for this reason. If we surrender those, as we have done, and continue to do, we cannot claim to live in a free democratic society.

Projecting from our own experiences of day-to-day life to the general qualities that have to govern societies is not a valid comparison. That is why civil rights and human rights charters have to rise above this. Saying, I love my family more than X or Y and I'll do anything to protect them, and because of that it's OK for society to treat other society's in a similar manner is anti-everything that makes out society free and democratic. It's a conflation that reminds me a lot of 19th century Social Darwinism.

[onejayhawk]

I was in Iraq when all this was going down. One of our workers told me that they would have cut off his ear if he refused to join Saddam's Army. He was about 17 in 2004, so 14 or 15 when this happened.

J

[TranaGreg]

Of course we value some lives more than others. Do you value your own life the same as others? Your kids' lives (if you have them)? I'm not disagreeing with your argument that this is wrong when applied to some sort of value calculation to justify murder and/or torture, but the 'root problem' you're arguing is simply a fact of life.

so should the law be amended to allow for this difference of valuation? or should the law uphold the premise that all lives are equally valuable ... in which case this torture business needs to be considered an illegal act?

[GwynnInTheHall]

I was in Iraq when all this was going down. One of our workers told me that they would have cut off his ear if he refused to join Saddam's Army. He was about 17 in 2004, so 14 or 15 when this happened.

J

And this means exactly what?

[onejayhawk]

And this means exactly what?

You tell me.

J

[GwynnInTheHall]

You tell me.

J

That yet again, you don't understand the question?

[johnnya24]

I was in Iraq when all this was going down. One of our workers told me that they would have cut off his ear if he refused to join Saddam's Army. He was about 17 in 2004, so 14 or 15 when this happened.

J

So if they torture it's OK if we torture? So your standards for human and civil rights are now Saddam Hussain?

[Gregg]

Yeah but they're not the same thing, they're not even close to the same thing. You can't you conflate the everyday desire to protect your kids with the fundamental principles of liberal democracy. Our society is based on principles that are specifically designed to counter and rise above base desires and passion. Constitutions, Rights Charters, the Justice system are in place specifically for this reason. If we surrender those, as we have done, and continue to do, we cannot claim to live in a free democratic society.

Projecting from our own experiences of day-to-day life to the general qualities that have to govern societies is not a valid comparison. That is why civil rights and human rights charters have to rise above this. Saying, I love my family more than X or Y and I'll do anything to protect them, and because of that it's OK for society to treat other society's in a similar manner is anti-everything that makes out society free and democratic. It's a conflation that reminds me a lot of 19th century Social Darwinism.

This is one of the best political posts I have read since coming here. I appreciate the content and the way it was written. I am not sure I agree (or disagree for that matter) with it. It certainly has made me pause and think about it. It is challenging me to examine some thoughts and feelings that I have taken for granted.

Thank you. And well done.

[onejayhawk]

That yet again, you don't understand the question?

That is not a question. That is a statement with a "?" at the end. It is also an incorrect statement.

So if they torture it's OK if we torture? So your standards for human and civil rights are now Saddam Hussain?

Better, but still not close.

J

[johnnya24]

We knew all of this ... I'm not sure why people are being surprised all of a sudden. Says a lot about our pathetic media machine.

The stand out thing for me was the attempt to exonerate the White House and pin it all on the CIA ... when there is documentary evidence that the White House gave the CIA the green light to do anything they wanted.

[Pogues]

This is one of the best political posts I have read since coming here. I appreciate the content and the way it was written. I am not sure I agree (or disagree for that matter) with it. It certainly has made me pause and think about it. It is challenging me to examine some thoughts and feelings that I have taken for granted.

Thank you. And well done.

Geesh...his head is already too big from all those VD wins...

[johnnya24]

Geesh...his head is already too big from all those VD wins...

But that one game I choked and gifted to you hurts the most ... not sure I'll ever fully get over that.

REM VDX, Feb 2008