Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
    I don't think there is much of a comparison between current Russia in their military capability or aggression compared to Germany leading up to WW2. But I'd certainly listen to other viewpoints about how a 30 mile long Russian convoy that sits on the highway before retreating is just like the Blitzkrieg that conquered numerous countries in days or weeks.
    fair point - highways didn't exist yet

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ken View Post
      fair point - highways didn't exist yet
      So you are saying Germany would have conquered countries in days or hours if there were highways. I never considered that
      ---------------------------------------------
      Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
      ---------------------------------------------
      The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
      George Orwell, 1984

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sour Masher View Post
        The MIC, for sure, is pushing this, but it seems like an easier push when the country and world are not on the edge of recession, when interest rates are high, and when close to 30% of our current non-entitlement budget has to go to interest payments, because money is no longer free. There is precedent for all of this being ignored, central banks being pressured into lowering interest rates to fund the war machine, but conditions are not optimal for that now. The hawks have a much easier sales job when interest rates are low and there are not other financial priorities in play. Still, it is hard to know exactly how this plays out when you have Putin steering where this goes, ultimately. I was just posting to talk out ideas that I want to believe make it less likely that there will be further escalation and more likely that this horrible war ends quickly. There are still many economic sanctions that could be put into play, but have not been so far. I guess the West wants to hold those cards to give Russia something to lose for going nuclear, and because enacting some of those sanctions would also hurt western countries. The status quo is just brutal, though. Ukraine and its people have proven to be incredbly resiliant and Zelensky has shown tremendous resolve and courage, but the deaths and suffering are horrific and I can't believe it continues after this long with no clear end in sight. Even though people have talked about how bad this is going for Russia since the beggining, and how bad it has gone for Putin personally, the war continues.
        There are certainly economic considerations. I'm not sure how much the interest rates play into it compared to the overall economic impact on trade. I suspect the U.S. will be happy to let this go on indefinetely and hope it doesn't explode into something larger and more dangerous. At some point all the interested parties will need to decide if continuing the war is worth it, and what does an acceptable end to the war look like for Russia, Ukraine, and the Western governments.
        ---------------------------------------------
        Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
        ---------------------------------------------
        The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
        George Orwell, 1984

        Comment


        • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
          Raises hand.....We could just ignore Russia biting off chunks of nations like Ukraine and Moldova, but it didn't work really well for anyone letting Germany and Russia do that about 85-90 years ago. Those who ignore history ae doomed to repeat it and all.
          Simple question - does Russia have the desire and capability to conquer Ukraine ?
          ---------------------------------------------
          Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
          ---------------------------------------------
          The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
          George Orwell, 1984

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
            I don't think there is much of a comparison between current Russia in their military capability or aggression compared to Germany leading up to WW2.
            Riiiiigghhht.....so the remilitarization of the Rheinland in 1936 (in clear violation of the Versailles Treaty), using proxies to help drive the annexation of Austria in 1938 and the annexation of the Sudentenland in 1938, and the use of the "Polish Corridor" access in 1939 to create an excuse for attacking Poland were wholly unlike the annexation of the Crimea, the use of proxies to help drive annexation of Transnistria and the Donbas region, and the excuse of "Nazification" and Kherson region disputes?

            The only difference is we finally acted, despite all the worries about Russia gaining a relatively easy victory in the Ukraine. Has France and Britain actually acted in 1936, they'd probably have had the same result as every historian familiar with pre-WWII history agrees Germany was in no way ready for war that early.

            As for will and desire, absolutely Russia wanted, at a minimum, to reestablish Russian dominance in Eastern Europe again and take back territories it had as part of the old Soviet Union. Putin has said as much. Pretty much like Hitler in Mein Kampf....which was also ignored until it was too late.

            So, yes, we now know Russia is in no way ready for a conflict against NATO. But would we have rather found that out having not helped Ukraine and forced to act when Russia moved against the Baltic States and we'd have to intervene? In a Russian-NATO conflict that would have been far more likely to go nuclear?
            I'm just here for the baseball.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
              Riiiiigghhht.....so the remilitarization of the Rheinland in 1936 (in clear violation of the Versailles Treaty), using proxies to help drive the annexation of Austria in 1938 and the annexation of the Sudentenland in 1938, and the use of the "Polish Corridor" access in 1939 to create an excuse for attacking Poland were wholly unlike the annexation of the Crimea, the use of proxies to help drive annexation of Transnistria and the Donbas region, and the excuse of "Nazification" and Kherson region disputes?

              The only difference is we finally acted, despite all the worries about Russia gaining a relatively easy victory in the Ukraine. Has France and Britain actually acted in 1936, they'd probably have had the same result as every historian familiar with pre-WWII history agrees Germany was in no way ready for war that early.

              As for will and desire, absolutely Russia wanted, at a minimum, to reestablish Russian dominance in Eastern Europe again and take back territories it had as part of the old Soviet Union. Putin has said as much. Pretty much like Hitler in Mein Kampf....which was also ignored until it was too late.

              So, yes, we now know Russia is in no way ready for a conflict against NATO. But would we have rather found that out having not helped Ukraine and forced to act when Russia moved against the Baltic States and we'd have to intervene? In a Russian-NATO conflict that would have been far more likely to go nuclear?
              Yeah anyone who paid attention knew that all along, and knew that your scary talk about being doomed to repeat the history of WW2, was just talk.

              EDIT: whether or not we should have supported Ukraine when Russia invaded was actually a bit of a sidetrack. Their were valid reasons to support them. The question being discussed was about the continuation of the war and how to end it.
              Last edited by The Feral Slasher; 11-17-2022, 11:30 AM.
              ---------------------------------------------
              Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
              ---------------------------------------------
              The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
              George Orwell, 1984

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
                Yeah anyone who paid attention knew that all along, and knew that your scary talk about being doomed to repeat the history of WW2, was just talk.
                Uh, no. Actually, no one understood the depth of disrepair the Russian military had fallen into.

                The question being discussed was about the continuation of the war and how to end it.
                Keep supplying the Ukrainian army and let them crush Russia like bug, certainly through recovering all non-Crimean territory.
                I'm just here for the baseball.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                  Uh, no. Actually, no one understood the depth of disrepair the Russian military had fallen into.



                  .
                  lol, we spend more than 10 times what Russia does on our military budget and Germany, France and UK all spend nearly as much as Russia. You have to be delusional to think they offer a serious threat to NATO in a conventional war, even before we have seen them in action.
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                  George Orwell, 1984

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
                    lol, we spend more than 10 times what Russia does on our military budget and Germany, France and UK all spend nearly as much as Russia. You have to be delusional to think they offer a serious threat to NATO in a conventional war, even before we have seen them in action.
                    Well, all of NATO and most of the US military leadership, most of our intelligence arms, the Finnish and Swedish governments and intelligence arms were pretty equally delusional then, n'est-ce pas?
                    I'm just here for the baseball.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                      Well, all of NATO and most of the US military leadership, most of our intelligence arms, the Finnish and Swedish governments and intelligence arms were pretty equally delusional then, n'est-ce pas?
                      A bunch of people who can bolster their budget and power by exaggerating a minor or non-existent threat ? Those guys ? Like I said, NATO outspends Russia 15 or 20 times over, has a far greater population, and multiple times Russia's GDP. But you and the military tell us they will conquer the world. After we've seen the Russian military in action it only confirms that I was right.
                      ---------------------------------------------
                      Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                      ---------------------------------------------
                      The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                      George Orwell, 1984

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                        Well, all of NATO and most of the US military leadership, most of our intelligence arms, the Finnish and Swedish governments and intelligence arms were pretty equally delusional then, n'est-ce pas?
                        So at what point do you do some simple math and quit believing what those guys tell you ???? Honestly it was surprisingly easy to get you to acknowledge that all of our military and intelligence is either lying or just incompetent. "The entire military was just as wrong as me" is a hell of an argument.
                        Last edited by The Feral Slasher; 11-17-2022, 11:09 PM.
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                        George Orwell, 1984

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
                          So at what point do you do some simple math and quit believing what those guys tell you ???? Honestly it was surprisingly easy to get you to acknowledge that all of our military and intelligence is either lying or just incompetent. "The entire military was just as wrong as me" is a hell of an argument.
                          My point was it wasn't merely our military and intelligence. Finland, who has studiously remained a non-aligned country since WWII, looked at the situation and applied for NATO inclusion. The Finnish people, who have strongly favored non-alignment in the past, moved to over 60% favoring entering NATO. Sweden, the same, only a more overwhelming plebiscite for entering NATO. Turkey, while a NATO member, also is heavily involved in the Caucausus region, initially pulled their support away from Azerbaijan in their conflict with Georgia; they've completely changed course upon seeing Russia's military failure and level of commitment. Kazakhstan activated their armed forces, clearly believing they were the next target after Russia quickly completed their invasion of Ukraine. They've not only returned to normal military activity level; they're also looking into how to reroute their oil shipments to the BTC (Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan) pipeline to avoid Russia entirely.
                          I'm just here for the baseball.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                            My point was it wasn't merely our military and intelligence. Finland, who has studiously remained a non-aligned country since WWII, looked at the situation and applied for NATO inclusion. The Finnish people, who have strongly favored non-alignment in the past, moved to over 60% favoring entering NATO. Sweden, the same, only a more overwhelming plebiscite for entering NATO. Turkey, while a NATO member, also is heavily involved in the Caucausus region, initially pulled their support away from Azerbaijan in their conflict with Georgia; they've completely changed course upon seeing Russia's military failure and level of commitment. Kazakhstan activated their armed forces, clearly believing they were the next target after Russia quickly completed their invasion of Ukraine. They've not only returned to normal military activity level; they're also looking into how to reroute their oil shipments to the BTC (Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan) pipeline to avoid Russia entirely.
                            I'd agree that there is reason for countries to be prepared, but disagree about the overall threat that Russia poses. Probably a good time to move on to some other topic.
                            ---------------------------------------------
                            Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                            ---------------------------------------------
                            The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                            George Orwell, 1984

                            Comment


                            • Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was "forcibly retired" in a plane crash today

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                                Russia's losses are compounding, and quickly. Looks like an entire 10 km line has crumbled in the Kherson area, and anywhere the Ukrainians push, the Russians are running away - and leaving tons of supply behind. There's talk now that if Ukraine wants to, they can push all the way to the Crimea - and possibly take that back, too.
                                Sure...
                                ---------------------------------------------
                                Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                                ---------------------------------------------
                                The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                                George Orwell, 1984

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X