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  • Obama and Afghanistan

    Seems that the last month has been a tough month for the Commander and Chief.

    Korans being burned by troops.
    Killing of Afghan citizens by an individual in the army.

    Seems like he doesn't have a lot of control on the troops over there.

    While this was the war everyone seemed to think we need to get into, it seems to be getting worse and worse the longer we stay.

    Any have some thoughts on how this plays out for the President, both short-term and long-term?
    "Looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
    - Steven McCrosky (Lloyd Bridges) in Airplane

    i have epiphanies like that all the time. for example i was watching a basketball game today and realized pom poms are like a pair of tits. there's 2 of them. they're round. they shake. women play with them. thus instead of having two, cheerleaders have four boobs.
    - nullnor, speaking on immigration law in AZ.

  • #2
    I think the President's decision to triple the troop levels there was the worst decision of his first term. It didn't make sense to me at the time and it looks even worse in the rear view mirror. I don't see what a 'victory' looks like there and I don't see where the additional troops have done anything beneficial for us or for the Afghans.
    I would like to hope the recent incidents would expedite our troops coming home but I'm not sure it will.
    As for political ramifications: I don't think this will have much impact at all because a good segment of the GOP supports our being there. The Dems base will continue to be upset, but they don't really have a place to go.
    It depresses me that we continue to lose people and spend money on this quagmire.

    Comment


    • #3
      The administration's current plan (announced last June) is to reduce the troop levels to 68,000 by this September, and to have a full withdrawal by the end of 2014. The Press Secretary said that the recent events have not led to a change in the timetable.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by In the Corn View Post
        While this was the war everyone seemed to think we need to get into, it seems to be getting worse and worse the longer we stay.
        Many people were against it and you are completely right that the situation is deteriorating each week we stay, but as usual we were ignored. By the time we withdraw from Iraq they'll just move on to Syria and/or Iran. Got to keep that war machine pumping.
        If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
        - Terence McKenna

        Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

        How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nots View Post
          I think the President's decision to triple the troop levels there was the worst decision of his first term. It didn't make sense to me at the time and it looks even worse in the rear view mirror. I don't see what a 'victory' looks like there and I don't see where the additional troops have done anything beneficial for us or for the Afghans.
          I would like to hope the recent incidents would expedite our troops coming home but I'm not sure it will.
          As for political ramifications: I don't think this will have much impact at all because a good segment of the GOP supports our being there. The Dems base will continue to be upset, but they don't really have a place to go.
          It depresses me that we continue to lose people and spend money on this quagmire.
          Dude when did we become brothers in thought.....You're just setting me up aren't you?

          I totally agree with your entire post.
          Again..
          If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

          Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
          Martin Luther King, Jr.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
            Dude when did we become brothers in thought.....You're just setting me up aren't you?

            I totally agree with your entire post.
            Again..
            Told you before--our positions aren't all that different on a lot of things. I think the deficit is a big problem and I think OWS is a good idea with just awful implementation--other than that, I agree with most of what you write.

            Comment


            • #7
              While I object to blaming the Koran burnings or the latest shooting spree on the President, as if any President can control the bad acts of individual soldiers from thousands of miles away, I do have a hard time assessing what, if anything, our continued and expanded sacrifice of blood and treasure in Afghanistan has won us. Perhaps Bob K or someone with more knowledge of the military effort can shed some light on whether it appears we've significantly reduced the threat of a return to power by the Taliban and/or the re-establishment of Afghanistan as a potential safe harbor for Al Qaeda training, recruiting and operations planning. Because those were the most important strategic objectives of the Obama administration's troop surge.

              Comment


              • #8
                What is it we realistically hope to achieve by the end of 2014 that we ahven't achieved already? I think Iraq was pretty instructive - we were able to maintain a veneer of stability while we were there to enforce it, but when we pulled out, the interfactional bombings and gun battles erupted almost immediately, and months later, the country is descending into chaos. Does anybody really think Afghanistan is going to end differently? If not, then what's the argument for two more years of this?
                "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
                "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
                "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by In the Corn View Post
                  Seems like he doesn't have a lot of control on the troops over there.
                  Since when is that the president's job? It's the job of the military officers.
                  Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer
                  We pinch ran for Altuve specifically to screw over Mith's fantasy team.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                    While I object to blaming the Koran burnings or the latest shooting spree on the President, as if any President can control the bad acts of individual soldiers from thousands of miles away, I do have a hard time assessing what, if anything, our continued and expanded sacrifice of blood and treasure in Afghanistan has won us. Perhaps Bob K or someone with more knowledge of the military effort can shed some light on whether it appears we've significantly reduced the threat of a return to power by the Taliban and/or the re-establishment of Afghanistan as a potential safe harbor for Al Qaeda training, recruiting and operations planning. Because those were the most important strategic objectives of the Obama administration's troop surge.
                    In short after 9/11, it was inevitable things would get worse, the only question was how bad ...

                    The west was on a hiding to nothing in Afghanistan. It was always lose-lose from the start. There is no military solution here that could actually make the West safer from future terrorist attacks. And yet a military response was inevitable, and unanimously decreed. So it was inevitable things would get worse. We've been shielded for most of the last 10 years because of the conventional conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have focused the anti-west resources on defending their homelands (they just see the next wave of Western imperialists ... that's all we are to them). The real dangers for the west will come in the next 10 years.

                    The risk from Islamic extremism is now much greater than pre-9/11, with the moderate Muslim world is now pushed toward accepting the extremities as norms, in particular Pakistan. When they get the time to realign and reorganize, they now have something concrete to grasp hold off. Whereas before 9/11 extremist rhetoric was generalized, largely ignorant and backward in a way that most moderates Muslims scoffed at it ... now, after 10 years of invasions, atrocities, perceived subjugation, ill-advised rhetoric from Cheney et al, Guantanamo, and the icing on the cake Iraq ... we have pushed the moderate Muslim world toward the realization that the extremists were actually right all along about the West ... we have proved it to them (from their perspective ... which is all that matters if we are talking about the inherent risks we will face in the future).

                    ... and look how we've left Iraq ... and how we will leave Afghanistan.

                    If we had kept the mission to Afghanistan and devoted all our resources on the actual problem, then inevitably the future risks would have been less. It started as a reprisal war against terrorist aggressors, and became a full on war against Islam ... at least in the eyes of the muslim world. Bad things will happen in the next 10-15 years, and we have to take a large part of the responsibility for that. But I don't see Afghanistan as being the issue ... the escalation of the conflict beyond Afghanistan was the real killer blow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bump to follow up on the Afghanistan points raised by nots and Feral Slasher in the other thread. I have consistently, through the entire Bush presidency and now the Obama presidency, generally agreed that the US had a legitimate basis, after 9/11, to remove the Taliban from power in Afghanistan and keep them out, because they clearly gave Al Qaeda a safe harbor within which to establish and maintain significant command-and-control operations, plus recruiting and training facilities, to facilitate terror against the US and its allies. And I do think American security interests were served by the initial removal of the Taliban and scattering of Al Qaeda to places where they'd at the very least have to operate in the shadows with far more logisitical challenges. But it's less clear to me what, if anything, has been accomplished since then. If the Taliban forces were able to depose the decidedly unhelpful Karzai government, what would happen? If all we're really heading off at this point is a cosmetic defeat, then I think I'd agree that the sooner we bring our troops home the better. To get back to senorsheep's point above, what is it that we realistically hope to achieve by the end of 2014 that we haven't achieved already.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I can appreciate your being consistent in your views.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                          Bump to follow up on the Afghanistan points raised by nots and Feral Slasher in the other thread. I have consistently, through the entire Bush presidency and now the Obama presidency, generally agreed that the US had a legitimate basis, after 9/11, to remove the Taliban from power in Afghanistan and keep them out, because they clearly gave Al Qaeda a safe harbor within which to establish and maintain significant command-and-control operations, plus recruiting and training facilities, to facilitate terror against the US and its allies. And I do think American security interests were served by the initial removal of the Taliban and scattering of Al Qaeda to places where they'd at the very least have to operate in the shadows with far more logisitical challenges. But it's less clear to me what, if anything, has been accomplished since then. If the Taliban forces were able to depose the decidedly unhelpful Karzai government, what would happen? If all we're really heading off at this point is a cosmetic defeat, then I think I'd agree that the sooner we bring our troops home the better. To get back to senorsheep's point above, what is it that we realistically hope to achieve by the end of 2014 that we haven't achieved already.
                          If the Taliban was to seize power from a corrupt Karzai regime, I suspect what would happen is what has already happened in the past, a return to authoritarian rule where women are treated as little more than cattle, denied education, and subjected to all kinds of unimaginable horrors. I suspect that you'd also see what has already happened with destruction of priceless artifacts simply because they don't fall right in line with the Taliban's strict interpretation of religious law.

                          In short, I do believe that all of the gains the Afghan people have made in the last decade would be undone in less than half of that time. It's not about increasing the gains that we've made at this point, it's about holding on to what has already been accomplished...
                          "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
                          - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

                          "Your shitty future continues to offend me."
                          -Warren Ellis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hornsby View Post
                            If the Taliban was to seize power from a corrupt Karzai regime, I suspect what would happen is what has already happened in the past, a return to authoritarian rule where women are treated as little more than cattle, denied education, and subjected to all kinds of unimaginable horrors. I suspect that you'd also see what has already happened with destruction of priceless artifacts simply because they don't fall right in line with the Taliban's strict interpretation of religious law.

                            In short, I do believe that all of the gains the Afghan people have made in the last decade would be undone in less than half of that time. It's not about increasing the gains that we've made at this point, it's about holding on to what has already been accomplished...
                            I guess it's unclear to me whether we can exit Afghanistan as currently planned and also secure for the Afghan people the promise of a stable government that both reflects the will of the Afghan people as a whole and that respects individual human rights. As fresno suggested in the other thread, that might require a significant open-ended, long-term US security and nation-building commitment.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                              I guess it's unclear to me whether we can exit Afghanistan as currently planned and also secure for the Afghan people the promise of a stable government that both reflects the will of the Afghan people as a whole and that respects individual human rights. As fresno suggested in the other thread, that might require a significant open-ended, long-term US security and nation-building commitment.
                              I think that about all you can really hope for is that now that they've seen how life can be, they'll refuse to be enslaved by a theocracy again. You hope that they'll get their version of "Arab Spring" if it comes to that, and take control of their own destinies. All you have to do is look at Egypt to see what dangers exist, but I firmly believe that the seed has been planted for the Afghan people.

                              I think that you can have a long term, multi-national nation building commitment, but establishing a full time, large scale military presence there is not going to be the answer.
                              "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
                              - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

                              "Your shitty future continues to offend me."
                              -Warren Ellis

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