Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Predator Priests

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Predator Priests

    What should the Catholic Church be doing to address this recurring problem, and what should governments be doing, given the history of problems and the Church's failure to address the problem (plus some very shady actions to hide/bury the problem)?

    Pope Francis on Monday addressed reports detailing decades of sexual abuse by clerics against minors, writing in a letter that “we showed no care for the little ones.”




    ALBANY — Not leaving it to divine chance, the state Catholic Conference has turned in recent years to some of Albany’s most well-connected and influential lobby firms to help block a bi…


    It's so prevalent that it's hard to imagine the Church could effectively clean its own house on a global level, but longer term, isn't it about time they (1) end the ban on priests marrying/procreating, and (2) start ordaining women?

  • #2
    a saw a great idea on my twitter feed, that the Catholic Church should just hand over the keys to the all their nuns & sisters & remove all men from any positions of authority
    It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

    Comment


    • #3
      this ran in the NYT over the weekend. The author is a professor at ND, Catholicism historian, feminist and classmate and friend of RJEL girl.

      Yes, there is still holiness in the church. But the sin is so pervasive and corrosive that it is irresponsible to talk about anything else.


      People will say that there is still holiness in the church, that there are many priests and bishops with good and pure hearts, and they are right. But there are times when the sin is so pervasive and corrosive that it is irresponsible to talk about anything else, and this is one of those times. My once-polite requests for incremental reform have morphed overnight into demands that church leaders voluntarily relinquish their place at the head table.

      Imagine hearing abdications of power along the following lines in Sunday homilies, in diocesan news conferences, or in statements from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

      “We were granted privileges because we were meant to represent Jesus Christ on earth. But Jesus said that we should humble ourselves like little children if we want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and also that anyone who harms a little one ‘would be better drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone around his neck.’ We are no longer worthy of your sacred trust.

      We are ready to listen humbly, first of all to victims and their advocates, who might tell us how to begin to ease suffering and to make recompense. We welcome prosecutors and lawyers and historians into our archives, so that the full truth, however damning, might be known. We acknowledge that our system of seminary education is deeply flawed, and ask how it might be reformed so as to produce leaders who thrive as human beings. We submit to new layers of oversight, because the ones we ourselves imposed failed so miserably. We are listening. We are learning. We ask for God’s mercy, and yours.”

      Will we hear statements like these? Unlikely. But we are owed nothing less from our ordained leaders as collective atonement for the sins of their brothers.
      I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
        What should the Catholic Church be doing to address this recurring problem, and what should governments be doing, given the history of problems and the Church's failure to address the problem (plus some very shady actions to hide/bury the problem)?
        From the lobbying one:
        Filings show the lobbyists were retained, in part, to work on issues associated with "statute of limitations" and "timelines for commencing certain civil actions related to sex offenses." Other issues included parochial school funding and investment tax credits.
        I was wondering this last night, when they were talking about charging the East Area Rapist with kidnapping charges so he could be held accountable for some of his earlier crimes where term limits had expired... What is the rationalization for term limits on sex offenses? That seems like a singularly patriarchal choice.
        I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
          What should the Catholic Church be doing to address this recurring problem
          Question due to my own ignorance here. Do mandatory reporting laws cover priests?

          If not, include them. Make the penalties for not reporting them harsh, include significant prison time. Make the prison terms run sequentially so that an individual who does not report known abuse for tens or hundreds of children is locked up for life.

          The primary issue here is the culture of sweeping it under the rug. That cultivates more crime since it is going unpunished. Get rid of the culture by locking up everyone who knew but did not report.

          Comment


          • #6
            "isn't it about time they (1) end the ban on priests marrying/procreating, and (2) start ordaining women? "

            that is dramatically missing the issue here. I guess you think that these guys really have this urgent need to marry/procreate, but celibacy rules force them instead to abuse altar boys?

            you may understand that pervert youth coaches, to name one group, choose that field because, well, it is a target-rich environment. or did you think that all that perspiration scent and those uniforms turned those gentle souls into monsters?

            do you actually believe that we are not talking about a group of pedophiles who surveyed the terrain - then realized that the guise of a priest was a perfect disguise? they were wolves in sheep's clothing. note what percentage of pervert priests chose boys as targets. do you think that they passed up the girls for fear they would get pregnant? THAT'S the 'moral high ground' that they chose?

            I'll add that my answer has zero to do with the despicable widespread coverups. how and why these priests performed their evil acts is irrelevant to the crimes committed by countless high-ranking Church members in a Penn Statex1000 craven desire to "protect the brand" above all else.

            whether priests in 2018 should have to be celibate, or if women should be included, also is a separate issue.
            finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
            own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
            won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

            SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
            RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
            C Stallings 2, Casali 1
            1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
            OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
              "isn't it about time they (1) end the ban on priests marrying/procreating, and (2) start ordaining women? "

              that is dramatically missing the issue here. I guess you think that these guys really have this urgent need to marry/procreate, but celibacy rules force them instead to abuse altar boys?

              you may understand that pervert youth coaches, to name one group, choose that field because, well, it is a target-rich environment. or did you think that all that perspiration scent and those uniforms turned those gentle souls into monsters?

              do you actually believe that we are not talking about a group of pedophiles who surveyed the terrain - then realized that the guise of a priest was a perfect disguise? they were wolves in sheep's clothing. note what percentage of pervert priests chose boys as targets. do you think that they passed up the girls for fear they would get pregnant? THAT'S the 'moral high ground' that they chose?

              I'll add that my answer has zero to do with the despicable widespread coverups. how and why these priests performed their evil acts is irrelevant to the crimes committed by countless high-ranking Church members in a Penn Statex1000 craven desire to "protect the brand" above all else.

              whether priests in 2018 should have to be celibate, or if women should be included, also is a separate issue.
              I don't want to speak for B-Fly, but I will say that it does not necessarily follow that if one proposes allowing priests to marry or women to be ordained as part of the solution to lessening child abuse in the Catholic Church that the person making that claim is implying that priests who abuse children are non-pedophiles driven to it by lack of choices.

              I think the primary driver of the connection between ordaining woman and allowing for priests to marry is that it would GREATLY broaden the number of potential priests, so pedophiles looking for an easy path to prey would have a whole lot more competition for the jobs. As it is now, the dearth of candidates interested in the priesthood has long been a problem, which I imagine has led to many candidates getting through (including pedophiles) who would not have cut it had they had to compete with so many more candidates who are now excluded from consideration (men who want to be married and women).

              All that said, I'll challenge that notion, which you seem to suggest in your response, that all sexual abuse against children in the church is from pedophiles. While I assume the vast majority of sexual abuse against children stems from pedophilia, I am certain not all of it does. Just like with rapes in general, there are those who abuse children who get off on the power aspects of it more than sexual attraction. There are people who are not really attracted to children because they are children, but rather because they are easy targets to victimize, and these people are still capable of and do sexually abuse them (one might even argue such people are even worse than pedophiles, because there is not lust behind their decisions to abuse, although making that distinction in intent and motivation is fairly pointless when you are talking about acts so heinous and damaging).
              Last edited by Sour Masher; 08-22-2018, 09:46 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
                "isn't it about time they (1) end the ban on priests marrying/procreating, and (2) start ordaining women? "

                that is dramatically missing the issue here. I guess you think that these guys really have this urgent need to marry/procreate, but celibacy rules force them instead to abuse altar boys?
                Agree on some level, I don't think the rules force these guys to abuse alter boys, but it does create a distorted and malevolent view of human sexuality... allowing priests to marry, or ordaining women will normalize the culture a bit which is a step in the right direction because the culture is rotten to the core right now.
                I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

                Comment


                • #9
                  "I think the primary driver of the connection between ordaining woman and allowing for priests to marry is that it would GREATLY broaden the number of potential priests, so pedophiles looking for an easy path to prey would have a whole lot more competition for the jobs."

                  that's an interesting angle, Sour Masher.

                  now, I'd still fear that the pedophiles are so driven that they'd find a way - but any hurdles arguably are welcome.
                  finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
                  own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
                  won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

                  SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
                  RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
                  C Stallings 2, Casali 1
                  1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
                  OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
                    "I think the primary driver of the connection between ordaining woman and allowing for priests to marry is that it would GREATLY broaden the number of potential priests, so pedophiles looking for an easy path to prey would have a whole lot more competition for the jobs."

                    that's an interesting angle, Sour Masher.

                    now, I'd still fear that the pedophiles are so driven that they'd find a way - but any hurdles arguably are welcome.
                    I imagine the horrific cover ups would have happened either way, but i do wonder if there would have been as many cases of child abusing priests being reshuffled elsewhere to commit more crimes if there were lines of replacements for them rather than ever increasing shortages. I wonder how many church officials justified keeping in the fold child molesters who said they felt terrible about their sins and pinkie swore to never do it again, because they decided it was worth the risk to keep them on the job compared to possibly losing a significant part of their work force, at times when the ratio of Catholics to priests was nearly doubling over a 30 year span. I do think the ever growing dearth of men pursing the priesthood was a factor in cases where offenders were reshuffled elsewhere rather than reported and arrested.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree with Sour Masher regarding the depth of the "talent pool" and heyelander re: distorted views of sexuality. I would also note the prevalence of situational "homosexuality" (which I put in quotes because it's an affront to homosexuals to treat it as the same thing) in the form of same-sex assault/rape in the prison system. I do think forced celibacy can drive those of weak will power to grasp for sexual power/release wherever they can find it. (Compare the "incel" phenomenon we've discussed in another thread, although I recognize the priesthood is presumably based on voluntary celibacy.) I think it's a dangerous norm within the priesthood that not only draws deviants, but can also draw out deviance. It's obviously dramatically aided by the culture of secrecy and cover up and the veneer of godliness, which in the mind of a deviant, whether born or created, reduces the real/perceived risk of punishment and makes it a lot easier to decide to act upon deviant urges. Add in that pedophilia itself is far more rare in women than in men and there are plenty of reasons to think ordaining women and ending the celibacy mandates would positively impact the problem.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by heyelander View Post
                        From the lobbying one:


                        I was wondering this last night, when they were talking about charging the East Area Rapist with kidnapping charges so he could be held accountable for some of his earlier crimes where term limits had expired... What is the rationalization for term limits on sex offenses? That seems like a singularly patriarchal choice.
                        There's a decent summary at Wikipedia of the purpose of statutes of limitations:



                        The purpose and effect of statutes of limitations are to protect defendants. There are three reasons for their enactment:

                        A plaintiff with a valid cause of action should pursue it with reasonable diligence.
                        By the time a stale claim is litigated, a defendant might have lost evidence necessary to disprove the claim.
                        Litigation of a long-dormant claim may result in more cruelty than justice.


                        But the law varies by jurisdiction and there are exceptions that also vary by jurisdiction:

                        Many jurisdictions suspend, or toll, the limitation period under certain circumstances such as if the aggrieved party (plaintiff) was a minor or filed a bankruptcy proceeding. In those instances, the running of limitations is tolled, or paused, until the condition ends. Equitable tolling may also be applied if an individual may intimidate a plaintiff into not reporting or has been promised a suspended period.

                        Crimes considered heinous by society have no statute of limitations. Although there is usually no statute of limitations for murder (particularly first-degree murder), judges have been known to dismiss murder charges in cold cases if they feel the delay violates the defendant's right to a speedy trial.[38] For example, waiting many years for an alibi witness to die before commencing a murder trial would be unconstitutional. In 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court in Stogner v. California ruled that the retroactive extension of the statute of limitations for sexual offenses committed against minors was an unconstitutional ex post facto law.


                        So in many cases the statute of limitations for alleged sexual abuse of a minor doesn't begin ticking until the minor reaches statutory adulthood.

                        Note that the US Supreme Court in Stonger found that retroactively extending the statute of limitations for sexual offenses committed against minors was unconstitutional based on ex post facto, but that shouldn't necessarily stop states from statutorily extending or even eliminating statutes of limitations for sexual offense committed against minors going forward, unless the court views the delayed prosecution as a deliberate effort to wait out the death of defense witnesses or something similar.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Since Steve is not here to do his job, I'll take care of it:

                          Predator Priests is an outstanding name for a metal band.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by umjewman View Post
                            Since Steve is not here to do his job, I'll take care of it:

                            Predator Priests is an outstanding name for a metal band.
                            too soon...

                            500 years from now will still be too soon.

                            that said, I make jokes about it all the time to RJEL Girl who is catholic... she always cringes, but I've told her there is never going to be a day where I don't bring this up because it is such a heinous culture... it blights any value I can see in the church. My goal in never to be funny, but to display my continued disdain.
                            Last edited by heyelander; 08-23-2018, 03:59 PM.
                            I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "I would also note the prevalence of situational "homosexuality" (which I put in quotes because it's an affront to homosexuals to treat it as the same thing) in the form of same-sex assault/rape in the prison system."

                              so why are so many youth coaches also assaulting children?

                              I think you may be a little stuck on
                              a) these monsters in priest robes are actually religious
                              b) if they almost always molest boys, it can't be because they like boys. it's.... ooh, celibacy! whew, I was a little worried there for a moment.

                              and I say worried, because obviously there remain horrifically inaccurate stereotypes about gay people.

                              I get it. but might you be starting from a more comfortable conclusion, and working backwards?

                              you could say the same about me, perhaps. but at least part of my consideration is the parallel between youth coaches and priests.

                              if you can find a differentiation, I'm all ears. so it's NOT easy access as a trusted figure to kids you get a chance to molest?

                              also, I have NO interest in rationalizing anything the Catholic Church did in this tragedy. with any luck, all of the horrors of hell that they preached reign down upon them for all eternity.

                              finally, comparing this to "situational homosexuality" in prison is quite a stretch - unless you believe that these monsters only molest kids because their "values" are such that they would NEVER violate a sacred oath and sleep with a woman. no, far better to diddle a boy.

                              to me, that's about as bad a stereotype of the typical Catholic as your point about stereotyping gay people.
                              Last edited by Judge Jude; 08-23-2018, 08:01 PM.
                              finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
                              own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
                              won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

                              SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
                              RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
                              C Stallings 2, Casali 1
                              1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
                              OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X