time is limited to making contact with other intelligent civilizations

space is expanding. it's hard but it's not that hard to explain. the expansion is exponential. every time it expands it gets farther than before. this means that the recent discovery of even an earth like world closer to us than any other, and say it's 40k light years away, by the time we get to it without finding some way to go faster than light, will be 60k light years away by the time we get there. and for things even farther away it gets harder.

eventually even the opportunities closest to us will be traveling faster away than the speed of light. it doesn't break the rules of physics. it's because space is expanding. so in order to make any contact we will have to break the rules of physics. and this worries me.

why would the universe be set up this way? to create ppl that can't find each other?.. so you know we have a problem.

[nullnor]

i like lawrence krauss i've read one of his books

[nullnor]

ok fuck it. that was from the world science festival in 2010 and i can't find the video for it.

[nullnor]

we measure the force of negative energy in rivers all the time. the examples we need have been provided. a river never flows more than 10 times it's width before making a turn, and it's outside flows faster than it's inside while making it. it's the same principle as warping thru as space.

[Gregg]

How do you define space?

[DMT]

I assumed from the thread title it would be about our dwindling chances of survival.

[nullnor]

How do you define space?

i don't know. nobody really knows. ..i mean i drive down the road in my car and think about how i can't see space on the road like i can thru a telescope. but i know it's there. i got about halfway thru brain greene's the fabric of space, and there were some cool things, but it didn't tell me what the fabric is.
you have to find similar examples. like water for example. things that behave in waves. you have to be able to explain everything it can do before you can figures what it is.
it's.. you know, connected. bells theorem. that's one of the difference between space and water. at some point water ends, but space never seems to end. it had a beginning, but that's all we know. i imagine it's made up of energy that coverts to molecules that causes it. but does it create new space, or is the universe stretching from the same existing material? these are answers that we can figure out eventually. a child in elementary school once asked max tegmark, if space went on forever. and he said to himself, that's a good question. because nobody knows.

one thing im interested in is if we do find a way to warp space and travel that way, will it still slow down our atoms? where there be time dilation. i mean, even if we figure out a way to go fast, is space still preventing us from getting there in time?

[Erik]

Does the Great Filter theory explain any of this?

[rhd]

My understanding is that rt now the space that is expanding is intergalatic space, not interstellar space. So intelligent civilizations in our galaxy will not be harder to get to. Of course, w our present technology it is completely unfeasible to get even to the next nearest star, which would take maybe 10-15000 years at our current speed of space travel.

[Gregg]

i don't know. nobody really knows. ..i mean i drive down the road in my car and think about how i can't see space on the road like i can thru a telescope. but i know it's there. i got about halfway thru brain greene's the fabric of space, and there were some cool things, but it didn't tell me what the fabric is.
you have to find similar examples. like water for example. things that behave in waves. you have to be able to explain everything it can do before you can figures what it is.
it's.. you know, connected. bells theorem. that's one of the difference between space and water. at some point water ends, but space never seems to end. it had a beginning, but that's all we know. i imagine it's made up of energy that coverts to molecules that causes it. but does it create new space, or is the universe stretching from the same existing material? these are answers that we can figure out eventually. a child in elementary school once asked max tegmark, if space went on forever. and he said to himself, that's a good question. because nobody knows.

one thing im interested in is if we do find a way to warp space and travel that way, will it still slow down our atoms? where there be time dilation. i mean, even if we figure out a way to go fast, is space still preventing us from getting there in time?

So what is space expanding in to? Another dimension? Are you saying that if we got to theoretical end of space and took one more step (also assumes traveling at the expansion rate giving the illusion of standing still if you are buying expansion) we would what?

Maybe space is just infinite.

[nullnor]

So what is space expanding in to? Another dimension? Are you saying that if we got to theoretical end of space and took one more step (also assumes traveling at the expansion rate giving the illusion of standing still if you are buying expansion) we would what?

Maybe space is just infinite.

philosophically everything that has a beginning has an end. so i guess we can answer the question about whether space ends. i mean it may have ends, like dimensions. the bottom of a black hole, i guess you could call that a dimension. tho ppl speculate about what it would be like to take one more step or go thru one. you would at need negative energy to try it. the way they explain dimensions that we can't access or see is that they are rolled up. like they didn't form. i reckon there is some mathematical reason. but to a cosmologist they are still there. so it's back to trying to explain everything space can do before trying to figure out what it is.

i forgot that intergalactic space expands faster than interstellar.

i'll be honest. i think space is god. i think of it like Odin sleep. at some point God wanted to feel everything different. but he can't exist at the same time as us. which is why the laws of physics are so rigid. i suppose it's just a different version of Gaia instead of applying it to earth it's the universe. yet, a God that created space would never have an end, yet space would. which means only we have an end, but if He's us and space, than technically He's us and we're Him. so than there's the question that God gave his life away to create us.

i didn't mean to be religious, but i try to look everywhere for clues.

[Gregg]

This is actually a really great thread and yours is a fantastic question.


My understanding is this: first, "where is the universe expanding to" (a variation of your question) is a nonsensical question. The universe, by definition, contains everything everywhere.



Edit: Looks like the newest information reasons that this is incorrect. If you went in one direction you would not come back, as in a loop, but you would simply continue going in that particular direction forever.

Thank you.

I actually subscribe to this quote about a nonsensical question, yet science wants to argue it. Or maybe prove it?

I do believe that the universe contains everything and everywhere, that it is infinite. Any expansion would be within the infinite (universe) which is entirely possible as there is plenty of space in the infinite to expand.

You mention mind blowing, How about this: there can be no midpoint to infinity. Or all starting points are the midpoint. Where ever you start, whatever direction you take, You are no closer to the nonexistent end than I am or another planet or another solar system. I am where I am and infinity is equally far whatever direction I take. Same for you. Anything else would require edges.

[rhd]

Yes, this is a fascinating thread and there are many interesting ideas that could be discussed here.

I'm partial to the "multiverse" theory, meaning I think there are a multitude of universes of which ours is just one. A question popped into my head about whether it would be possible for 2 universes could collide. Right now the prevailing theories seem to be that the universe will go on expanding ( or "inflating") forever but that there will be no "big rip", i.e., matter itself will not be pulled apart but large objects of matter will be very far apart from each other. Also, there will eventually be a "heat death", i.e., everything will become the same cold temperature. But if we collide w another universe, this could change everything. Some scientists think this could happen and others apparently dont. But even w/o a collision w another universe, scientists think that this universe is composed of "branes" in hidden dimensions that could collide w the 3-dimensional brane that we live in which could alter our universe drastically.

Also, there is quantum theory, which is the about the wildest thing I've ever heard of in science. My limited understanding of quantum theory tells me that basically anything can happen at any time, given enough time, and that even the laws of physics themselves could change, and maybe have changed already. If the laws of physics can change, then it is impossible to know what the destiny of our universe is.