Kobe's place in NBA history

[B-Fly]

In the basketball forum, I think it's fair to discuss/debate where Kobe ranks as an all-time NBA great. It is very hard not to rank him as one of the great "winners" in NBA history - 6 NBA titles. But I was a little bit shocked to hear some folks speak of him as "the greatest Laker" or "one of the top five of all time". I think that's a major stretch. I think at least Kareem and Magic have to rank above Kobe in the NBA pantheon as Lakers, and Jerry West is arguable.

As for best NBA players of all-time, I don't think he cracks the top 10:

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Duncan
O'Neal
Olajuwon

Note that Bryant earned only one MVP award. He was certainly a preeminent scorer, and he had good peripheral counting stats largely by virtue of how much the ball was in his hands, and during his prime was a plus defender, but it's also hard not to conclude that he took way too many bad shots.

[Pauly]

Hard to argue with anyone on that list, but I am biased against big men when it comes to "who is the best player you have ever seen" type of arguments, which I think this is. I just feel like the gift of being dominant at 7 feet tall isnt quite the same as the gift of being able to jump from the free throw line or being able to shoot like a sniper from deep.

Not to say I dont agree with anything you posted. That said, if, for kicks, you limit the best of all time list to guards and forwards, I think it would be easy to include Kobe and probably Malone, Wade, Durant...stockton, barkley, Robertson, etc etc. Makes the convo more interesting at least

[Stephen]

I've been thinking about this and it's so hard to compare the best of anything in the NBA because of the way the eras are so firmly defined. We went from big men rule everything to guards/shooters now we're back in the 2 studs and role player build.

Kobe is my favorite player of all time, but I agree that he doesn't crack the top 10 if you're talking about "best". One of the key factors for "best" to me is "do you make your teammates better?". Kobe, in his prime, didn't do that. In fact, at times he made them worse because they would stand around and watch him. Guys like LeBron, Magic, and even Jordan to an extent are be more concerned with their teams being dominant as a whole and Kobe's competitive spirit and ego were so big that I think he lost sight of that at times. It's something I believe he figured out later in his career and certainly in his post-NBA years when he seemed to shift into a coach/teacher role with younger players, but not as a player.

All that being said, there isn't a player in the history of the league that I'd rather have with the ball in their hands and the game on the line. I think he's likely the best closer in NBA history.

[TS Garp]

One can make a strong argument for him being in the Top 10. You have Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Magic and then the last 3 spots are up for grabs. I have nothing against Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem being your choices but you can make arguments for so many guys: Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, West, Robertson, Barkley, etc. Even Durant. As for Kobe, you have to remember that he was a lock-down defender for a good part of his career (12 time all-defensive team) and was on the all-NBA team 15 times. He was also an amazing clutch performer, which counts for a lot as do the 5 championships. I'm honestly not 100% sure if I'd put him the Top 10 but he's certainly part of the conversation and I don't have an issue with him being there.

[heyelander]

One can make a strong argument for him being in the Top 10. You have Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Magic and then the last 3 spots are up for grabs. I have nothing against Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem being your choices but you can make arguments for so many guys: Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, West, Robertson, Barkley, etc. Even Durant. As for Kobe, you have to remember that he was a lock-down defender for a good part of his career (12 time all-defensive team) and was on the all-NBA team 15 times. He was also an amazing clutch performer, which counts for a lot as do the 5 championships. I'm honestly not 100% sure if I'd put him the Top 10 but he's certainly part of the conversation and I don't have an issue with him being there.

Yeah, that's where I am... there's a small list at the very top, and then there's a group right below that that Kobe is part of.

I use to work with his dad when I was interning at LaSalle U in their athletic dept and Bellybean was an assistant coach there. Kobe was a senior and there was a ton of talk about where he would attend college (if he did). I asked his dad at lunch one time, be honest, how good is your son? He said, I was a first round draft pick, played in the NBA and had a long career in Europe. Kobe blows me away. He is going to be one of the all-time greats. I thought he was just being a proud dad at the time.

[TS Garp]

Yeah, that's where I am... there's a small list at the very top, and then there's a group right below that that Kobe is part of.

I use to work with his dad when I was interning at LaSalle U in their athletic dept and Bellybean was an assistant coach there. Kobe was a senior and there was a ton of talk about where he would attend college (if he did). I asked his dad at lunch one time, be honest, how good is your son? He said, I was a first round draft pick, played in the NBA and had a long career in Europe. Kobe blows me away. He is going to be one of the all-time greats. I thought he was just being a proud dad at the time.

Wow, great story! Were those the Lionel Simmons days? There's a great biography about Kobe called Showboat by Ronald Lazenby (the same guy also wrote a terrific one about Jordan). I think you'd enjoy it.

[heyelander]

Wow, great story! Were those the Lionel Simmons days? There's a great biography about Kobe called Showboat by Ronald Lazenby (the same guy also wrote a terrific one about Jordan). I think you'd enjoy it.

I wish... I was there 4 or 5 years later when they were a pretty bad team.

Met Kobe a couple of times, just to say hi while he was shooting around they gym waiting for his dad to finish work. Nice enough kid from what I could tell.

Was just reading up on his dad... apparently they had a falling out 6 years ago and were just staring to reconcile. Bummed to read that.

[TS Garp]

I wish... I was there 4 or 5 years later when they were a pretty bad team.

Met Kobe a couple of times, just to say hi while he was shooting around they gym waiting for his dad to finish work. Nice enough kid from what I could tell.

Was just reading up on his dad... apparently they had a falling out 6 years ago and were just staring to reconcile. Bummed to read that.

There's a lot of stuff in Lazenby's book about those days and the relationship between Kobe and Jellybean. Definitely check out the book.

[heyelander]

There's a lot of stuff in Lazenby's book about those days and the relationship between Kobe and Jellybean. Definitely check out the book.

cool stuff. Thanks!

[Judge Jude]

about 10 years ago, I was helping ex-Sixer (and Net) Armon Gilliam as he explored doing some writing for nba.com.

for an athlete, he was very smart (I knew that already). but like most people who haven't written for publication, they often struggle to figure out what is the most compelling information they have.

about 15 paragraphs down in one article he showed me, Gilliam mentions in passing that when Kobe was middle-school age, he used to join in informal games after 76ers practices - and he was not at all intimidated.

while this might have been told to a Philly audience, I explained to Gilliam that a national viewership would most be interested in this - something about which only a couple of dozen people could really offer much insight. "burying the lead" was the term, I explained.

a year later, Gilliam was dead at age 46. Kobe* only made it to 41.

other Nets who never lived to reach the age I am now include:

1993 – DRAZEN PETROVIC, age 28, Net from 1991-93
1993 – BUBBLES HAWKINS, age 39, 1976-78
1996 – JOHN WILLIAMSON, age 45, 1973-77 and 1978-80
1998 – JAY TAYLOR, age 30, 1989-90
2004 – YINKA DARE, age 31, 1994-98
2010 – MAURICE LUCAS, age 58, 1980-81
2012 – DWAYNE SCHINTZIUS, age 43, 1992-95
2012 – ORLANDO WOOLRIDGE, age 52, 1986-88
2013 – RAY WILLIAMS, age 58, 1986-87
2015 – ANTHONY MASON, age 48, 1989-90
2015 – JACK HALEY, age 51, 1997 and 1998
2015 – DARRYL DAWKINS, age 58, 1982-87
2016 – PEARL WASHINGTON, age 52, 1986-88

you never know.

* - Kobe would be in the ex-Net club if he hadn't panicked John Calipari into selecting Kerry Kittles with the 8th pick, setting the stage for the Hornets-Lakers trade that changed the course of the NBA.

[Judge Jude]

the Jerry West interview on TNT tonight - part of the coverage that made up for the lost Lakers-Clippers game - is about as raw as you will ever see a legend get.

he talks about how the Lakers came to acquire Kobe in the draft-night deal, and much more than that, it's an old legend mourning the loss of one half his age - and that is just excruciatingly painful for him. and he says it all with a respectful and somber Shaq one seat over, and Barkley, Reggie, Kenny Smith et all also just letting the legend run his own play one more time, as it were.

I'll defer to the younger crowd to find the proper link here. it's worth it