Shouldn't Scioscia be fired?

[Stephen]

this argument would be a lot easier against Ozzie Guillen...

Definitely. Plus, I think we all can agree that Ricky Nolasco is an Ace!

[Lucky]

I can't believe I just read a thread arguing whether Ervin Santana is or ever was an ace.

[Stephen]

Counting your back surgery, was that the most painful thing you've dealt with this year?

[joncarlos]

I think everyone is missing the point here... if this is really an epic fail by Scoscia then isn't it also a staggeringly amazing job by Bob Melvin*? Shouldn't we be showering him with gold-plated houses and vestal virgins?

*Side note... I actually had to look up who the A's manager was

[TopChuckie]

Eh, it's a stretch. He ended up the best statistically the best pitcher in 2008, but a Lackey injury had something to do with that. I won't take that season away from, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

Ervin Santana's rookie season was 2005 and while he's shown some flashes of being a great pitcher he's also extremely inconsistent.

Let's look year by year:

2005
Santana: 12-8 4.65 ERA, 1.39 WHIP 99/48 K/BB
Colon: 21-8 3.48 ERA, 1.16 WHIP 157/43 K/BB
Lackey: 14-5 3.44 ERA, 1.34 WHIP 199.71 K/BB

Granted, Santana came up mid season so I'm willing to toss that year out for the purpose of this comparison despite the fact he clearly wasn't the ace of tha team.

2006
Santana: 16-8 4.28 ERA, 141 K, 70 BB
Escobar: 11-14 3.61 ERA, 147 K, 50 BB
Lackey: 13-11 3.56 ERA, 190 K, 72 BB

Santana was solid, but certainly not Ace numbers and was the 3rd best starter.


2007
Santana: 7-14 5.76 ERA, 126 K, 58 BB
Lackey: 19-9 3.01 ERA, 179 K, 52 BB
Escobar: 18-7 3.40 ERA, 160 K, 52 BB
Weaver: 13-7 3.91 ERA, 115K, 45 BB
Saunders: 8-5 4.44 ERA, 69 K, 34 BB

Bad year. 5th best starter. Far from an Ace.


2008
Santana: 16-7 3.49 ERA, 214 K, 47 BB
Lackey: 12-5 3.75 ERA, 130K, 40 BB (8 fewer starts)
Saunders: 17-7 3.41, 103K, 53 BB

He was the best starter on the Angels in 2008. I'll give you that by comparison he was the closest thing the Angels had to an ace that season.

2009
Santana: 8-8 5.03 ERA, 1.475 WHIP, 107 K, 47 BB
Weaver: 16-8 3.75 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 174 K, 66BB
Saunders: 16-7 4.60 ERA, 1.430 WHIP, 101 K, 64 BB
Lackey: 11-8 3.83 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 139 K, 47 BB

Not even a discussion.


2010
Santana: 17-10 3.92 ERA, 169K, 73 BB
Weaver 13-12 3.01 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 233 K, 54 BB

Not even close.

2011
Santana: 11-12 3.38 ERA, 178 K, 72 BB
Haren: 3.17 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 192 K, 33 BB
Weaver: 2.41 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 198 K, 56 BB

Not even close.

He's never sniffed an opening day start, he isn't a guy that anyone should feel comfortable having on the mound with a series on the line. He's an inconsistent pitcher and a #3 at best.

I don't mean to derail the topic of your thread, but if Ervin Santana is an ace quality pitcher then so are guys like Joe Blanton, Jake Westbrook and Jose Guzman.

After last season and his 3.38 ERA, if Ervin Santana had been on the division leading Rangers roster to start this season I think he would have been in consideration for the opening day start, not factoring in team politics and seniority. He had a lower ERA and more K's than any returning Rangers starter, and all his other numbers were comparable or better than Lewis, Harrison, Holland, Ogando, except W-L. Are we to start using that as a gauge? At the very least he had to be considered one of the very best #4 starters in baseball behind three guys who are legitimate aces, and yet the Angels STILL needed to add another ace to try to make the playoffs.

And yes, I'm sure Bob Melvin will get strong consideration for Manager of the Year for the very same reasons Scioscia should be viewed at the other end of the spectrum.

[Stephen]

So the discussion has shifted from Ervin Santana being an Ace to being one of the very best #4 starters in baseball.

Sanity has prevailed!

[B-Fly]

I agree with Top Chuckie that if the Angels miss the playoffs they need to take a hard look at the manager and coaching staff.

[Stephen]

In all seriousness I think it depends on how they miss the playoffs.

They definitely have high expectations after signing Pujols and Wilson and now trading for Greinke, but if they are competitive until the last day of the season I think Scioscia has earned another year. The guy is the longest tenured manager in baseball and I wouldn't give him a ton of rope if the team struggled early next season, but I'd think that his 13 years with the club at least has earned him the benefit of the doubt considering the Angels over achieved for many years.

Also the fact that there isn't anyone available who I think would be any better (assuming LaRussa is really retired) I think may earn him more time.

[cavebird]

After last season and his 3.38 ERA, if Ervin Santana had been on the division leading Rangers roster to start this season I think he would have been in consideration for the opening day start, not factoring in team politics and seniority. He had a lower ERA and more K's than any returning Rangers starter, and all his other numbers were comparable or better than Lewis, Harrison, Holland, Ogando, except W-L. Are we to start using that as a gauge? At the very least he had to be considered one of the very best #4 starters in baseball behind three guys who are legitimate aces, and yet the Angels STILL needed to add another ace to try to make the playoffs.

And yes, I'm sure Bob Melvin will get strong consideration for Manager of the Year for the very same reasons Scioscia should be viewed at the other end of the spectrum.

Actually, no. Harrison had an ERA of 3.39 last year, which made for a far better ERA+ (129-112). Remember that Arlington is a bandbox and the Big A is not. This is not an apples to apples comparison, but nice try.

[Stephen]

And...CJ Wilson was clearly better as well which either invalidates that he was better than any of the Rangers options in 2011 or makes him not the Ace in 2012.

[cavebird]

And...CJ Wilson was clearly better as well which either invalidates that he was better than any of the Rangers options in 2011 or makes him not the Ace in 2012.

No, the idea was that the Angels stole the Rangers' ace, so they should crush the Rangers regardless of who is left in Arlington or whether the Rangers paid $100 million for a new ace pitcher.

[Hornsby]

He's given a seriously flawed team to begin with, Vernon Wells, a horrible project at 3rd that failed miserably, moving the slappy back to 3rd, Kendrick having a really subpar year, Hunter being out for an extended period, Bourjos not hitting, Albert not hitting, and an incomplete bullpen. They've slowly addressed each and every weakness of the club, and the record shows the results. I'll take the manager over just about any other in the game...